What would you buy Sub $350 Firewire/USB DAC

The Keces 151 USB DAC is definitely on my short list.

At the risk of being contrary, while the DAC is simply a converter, it does seem that the implementation of the conversion is somewhat important. For example, NOS vs. up sampling DACs sound somewhat different. Within each of those categories, some work better than others (for example, my M-Audio FastTrack Pro is a DAC, but I find the sound to be less than ideal).

At the moment, if I can spend more, I'm leaning toward the Musical Fidelity, Cambridge Audio, and Musiland DACs. Otherwise, the Keces, and Vintage Audio Labs seem like good choices.

Considerations:

* In each category, what will sound best?
* Do I need inputs other than the USB? Not at the moment, but someday perhaps?
* Are there differences in reliability? Will I receive good support in the off chance that there is a problem with the product?
* I own a pair of Grado SR-120s: perhaps I will want this to do double duty as a headphone amp?

I am going to look around a little more and update the listing that I started above.

Best,

Hi Prof -

yep, they do all sound a bit different. Function of the way the wiring is done, chip used, power supply etc. as well as the designers choices about how to voice it.

What we pretty much know is that coming using a hard drive as a transport greatly improves sound quality by eliminating the problems that are inherent in a 40 year old realtime electro-optical-mechanical design.

And that second to the problems of variable spin speeds and lasers reading pits; the second biggest quality problem to date has to do with poor SPDIF implementation.

SPDIF and Toslink are legacy systems that will fade away over time - though that is probably a decade due to the lifespan of much of this gear.

Yes you can get a Toslink capable DAC and link it to your old CDP - but what's the point - the CDP is inherently quality limited and to buy a Toslink DAC now is to make a dead end investment.

What drives the consumer electronic market is volume. What has unprecedented volume right now is iTunes, iPod and iPhone. In the past 5-6 years, over 100 million consumers worldwide now have some or all of their music on a hard drive. Many only buy downloadable music. This is what is going to drive the technology going forward -

Keep in mind that 2 channel redbook format audio needs very little bandwidth - the current standards and technologies provide plenty.

That makes future proofing difficult since it is most likely that the next file transfer technology will be designed for broader bandwidth media and to be wireless.

Following this logic, for 2009 a DAC with USB and WiFi would be the ticket. To see beyond that wait for the next CES and the next Intel Developers Forum and Apple Developers Forum.

But in terms of what you can buy today with your budget, go USB. You are safe for at least 3 years which is darn good in this day and age. The market is just too big to move any faster.

ALSO As you point out, there are many headphone users. Keces just introduced their 152 for this market which combines the DAC, preamp and power amp functions in one small form factor. I am sure it sounds great; and I am equally sure you will see more of these kinds of designs coming from Taiwan and China.

Using Keces as an example most people are aiming at one market or the other - the issue of course being that headphone users don't need the kind of wattage that people need to drive speakers.

It will take some digging - look to the east.

As far as support - its tricky since shipping a product back to Taiwan for a repair and then shipping it back will cost a disproportionate amount of the initial purchase price. Coupled with the construction techniques used, outright replacement is probably more cost effective.

This is a situation where you query the supplier/manufacturer first about his policies. Chance are that if it runs for a week after it arrives, it will run for many years.

Its also a you pays your money and makes your choices thing - by giving up the traditional importer/distributor model and dealing with the manufacturer you get a lot more for your money. But you don't get the same kind of service that someone who manufactures in the US and has a dealer network can provide.

IMHO, the hot ticket soon will be an integrated amp with a USB DAC built in, sufficient wattage to drive the average speaker (whatever that is) and enough niceties like remotes and headphone jacks to compete with the other integrated amps in the market place.

Eliminating components saves money and improves sound quality. It also uses less space which is important in every culture but ours. And it is greener which sooner or later will make a difference.

What a great post! Apart from confirming what I have always thought to be true (my Musical Fidelity B1's specs aren't any better, and indeed are much worse than many Sony, Pioneer, & etc. components) you raise important issues regarding cost vs. service. For $150, I'm likely to discard and purchase a new DAC should it fail. On the other hand, if the $400 Cambridge Audio DAC failed, I'd be quite reluctant to toss it.

Having flexibility of inputs is not a bad thing. As you note, many will become obsolete, but I suspect that USB has a good deal of life left in it, and should it be replaced, that adapters of one sort or another will extend the lifespan a touch. I tend to keep older equipment when it works well, so that might be okay.

Putting aside the truly inexpensive options, I wonder how much difference I would hear between the Keces, the Audio Sector and the Vintage Audiolabs NOS DACs--probably much less of a difference than between NOS and up sampling models. If I take the NOS route, the Vintage Audio Labs offers a variety of inputs (I'll use USB primarily, but on occasion the digital in from my rather harsh sounding HK CD player). If I take the up sampling route, I'll have to spend a good bit more.

I am learning a good deal from all of the input offered here, and once again, thanks to all.

Best,

The upsampling is a beast of a different color entirely - my only extended experience with it was with the TriVista. It was very smooth with no obvious artifacts but one day I just got up and turned it off. I just didn't like it.

Since that experience I have noticed that more and more people divide into two camps - NOS and upsample.

I suspect that this is one of those YMMV issues - either on the hardware side where the issue is how resolving your system is and what is your room like; on the software side where the issue may have something to do with what kinds of music and recordings you enjoy; and finally on the wetware side - how much have you listened and what do you listen for.

If there ever was a situation where GIGO applies, upsampling is it LOL

I tend to agree with you that it is unlikely you will hear much difference between the three DACs you mentioned. If you can, compare the DAC and Op Amp parts, and also try to get a sense of the power supply.

All things being equal it sounds as though you have done a good job in matching your system needs, budget and technology with the Vintage unit.

Give it a go and let us know what you think!

>>If there ever was a situation where GIGO applies, upsampling is it LOL<<

I can't help but think that this is a terribly important consideration for USB DACs. I suspect that I would enjoy the Cambridge Audiolabs or the Musical Fidelity when listening to lossless sources or when using a CD transport. On the other hand, I have well over 200 gigs of digital music that is not lossless, and with that or streaming sources (I use the online classical music library for my teaching), the NOS might actually be a better choice.

I am on creating a final short list soon...