Dear Thuchan: Finally I have a little time to give my answer- opinion ( btw, I need to post my answer to Halcro/Chris one and to Fleib on inductance. I need more time but I will do it. ) on your post about Common listening Aproach ( everything from here are in good shape and not against you. I respect you and you like me. Nothing personal. ) ):
++++++ " if we all would be a peer group knowing each other personally and also having had the chance to listen to each other system we might get closer to your objective parameters. I understand your approach finding comparable preconditions and to counterbalance them over the distance. Only I doubt it will work.
Regarding the EMT JPA 66, which is a pre-amp as well as a complex phono stage, I am in good neighbourhood with some Japanese and German afficinados that this is the ultimate machine. What I like is not only the sound and the variations you may play with, especially when it comes to MM cartridges. No, technologically the two output transformers (which phono stage does carry them) enable a different sound experience you may have with the EMT 139st too. Also the 6 inbuilt SUTs are of such good quality you will throw away most of the contenders...
This is first accurate and best performance......." +++++
Nandric said that both of us have no communication, I don't think so. The main difference is that both have different targets: when for you is enough that you like what you listen through your audio system for me needs not only like me but be accurate ( measure good. )-neutral-very low distortions-no colorations.
When you are looking for what you like I'm looking for excellence in quality performance level all over the audio chain. Your trade-offs are way different from mines.
As I posted: I listen ( when driven audio items tests. ) to what I missed, to what is not in " there " or what is " exceptional different ", to what disappear ( including distortions. ), etc, etc. As Doug Sax answered on that Halcro link: " and I listened not so much to its virtues as to its faults ".
I have years posting: " loosing and adding the less to preserve the source signal integrity ", this is my main target. First than all I have to preserve the source signal integrity looking for accurate and neutral audio links all over the home audio system chain.
IMHO today what measure good sounds good too, not like in the old times when those vintage Japanese electronics always measured good but sounds bad, this IMHO does not happen almost any more: normaly what we heard today in current electronics/speakers/audio items is how it measures.
How accomplish or try to accomplish my main target?, other that my knowledge/experience level on music and audio subjects I have to design a " process that help me to understand what I'm listening under audio items comparisons and that help me to identify:different kind of distortions and different distortion levels, colorations, noises and the like " , that's where my process born and came " alive " years ago and over the time was and is " suffering " changes to improve and be not only better but more trusty.
I don't care about my " Japanece/Germans neighbourhood " and only take care about when that " person " has a superior knowledge/skills level than mine, that's it: when I can learn to improve and grow-up.
For years I care not only on my " Japanese/german " audio friemds, reviewers, audio retailers and the like till I take in count that I was not growing up or at least growing up to slow. Somedays one step a head and some other days two.tree steps back and many times only side steps.
IMHO something similar of what you are living with out knowingit. My advise about is that you take alone your " road " with no " Jurassic audio gurus " surrounded where you can't grow-up and only are loosing time and money, yes with a lot of fun but loosing at the end. IMHO there is no " signs " of your audio improvements.
Your " Lost Friends " in your virtual system is nothing less than the " Frustration Friends " where sooner or latter your today tube electronics will finish.
I know that you are not looking for excellence performance level on your system and certainly with those " Jurassic Park " audio items is impossible you can achieve excellence.
I will take that EMT Phonolinepreamp that you and your " Jurassic " friends name it: " ultimate machine ". For me an " ultimate machine " must be first than all ACCURATE and NEUTRAL and your unit is far away from there. There are many reasons why your " ultimate machine " it is not an ultimate machine: full of transformers where the signal suffer severe degradation ( the best signal transformer is no tgransformer. ), full of swtichs where the signal is degraded, tube inherent inaccuracies non-neutral colored noisy and distorted technology ( it does not matters design and first rate execution. ).
Dear Thuchan, the RIAA deviation on that EMT ( 20hz to 20khz. ) has a swing of 1db!!!!!!, this IMHO is non-tolerable to any today phono stage: this sole factor made that that phono stage can't " save " and mantain the cartridge signal integrity, instead of that only degrade the cartridge signal with inaccuracies/colorations and distortions that are not on the cartridge signal!!!!, so where you and the " Jurassic Park " seen the " ultimate machine "?. I don't care that you like it because that's not the subject.
The subject is to achieve excellence quality performance level and that unit can't do it. I know that you think that with your new " toys " you go several steps a head but IMHO you only give steps backward or in the best scenario: only a side step, but I doubt this last.
That's why is so important to have a " specific process to audio system/items evaluation ". It is almost impossible to know if you really advance or go back only with that " It's wrong but I like it ", can't do it for sure.
I was really benign with your EMT RIAA deviation because if you measure that RIAA maybe that deviation is over 1db and not only that but is almost sure that the left channel RIAA be different from the right channel RIAA as maybe there are differences even in the line stage frequency range/response for both channels and even its output level for both channels could have differences too.
I know what you are hearing not only because this EMT and your Wavacs but for what you report, example that you like it the TK3e. I can understand this because youare a rockie on MM/MI cartridges but in other areas you confirm what I'm saying.
We all know that analog is an imperfect medium but we don't have to increment those imperfections on each audio link that like the phono stage and say: " I like it ".
Accuracy is the name of excellence, with out accuracy it does not matters " how good it sounds ". Don't you think that is way better that something be accurate to the signal and at the same time Sounded Good?, certainly yes.
This is an example of the excellence level I'm looking for and that I already achieve with some of my audio items ( I'm not saying I'm done but I'm trying hard to be " there ". ):
https://picasaweb.google.com/104284617601331669309/1606201109?authkey=Gv1sRgCNrBhveq5uzC-AE#slideshow/5618984106525365922
that is the RIIA deviation ( both channels. ) on the phono stage I use.
https://picasaweb.google.com/104284617601331669309/1606201107?authkey=Gv1sRgCI3hj-juiKXOGA#slideshow/5618983008834878562
those are the same RIAA measurements on two top SS Phonolinepreamps.
Remember the 60K Phono Stage only german Vitus?, well it is not better.
The RIIA accuracy on my latest unit measured: 0.012db!!!! both channels!!!!: no differences in between.
This is only of the excellence example level I'm accustom and looking for.
No, you and me ( as many other persons in this forum. ) are listening different " things " and not because we don't:
""" knowing each other personally and also having had the chance to listen to each other system we might get closer to your objective parameters. " ++++, but because your trade-offs ( for say the least and be polite. ) are way different from mines.
Excellence against " I like it ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
++++++ " if we all would be a peer group knowing each other personally and also having had the chance to listen to each other system we might get closer to your objective parameters. I understand your approach finding comparable preconditions and to counterbalance them over the distance. Only I doubt it will work.
Regarding the EMT JPA 66, which is a pre-amp as well as a complex phono stage, I am in good neighbourhood with some Japanese and German afficinados that this is the ultimate machine. What I like is not only the sound and the variations you may play with, especially when it comes to MM cartridges. No, technologically the two output transformers (which phono stage does carry them) enable a different sound experience you may have with the EMT 139st too. Also the 6 inbuilt SUTs are of such good quality you will throw away most of the contenders...
This is first accurate and best performance......." +++++
Nandric said that both of us have no communication, I don't think so. The main difference is that both have different targets: when for you is enough that you like what you listen through your audio system for me needs not only like me but be accurate ( measure good. )-neutral-very low distortions-no colorations.
When you are looking for what you like I'm looking for excellence in quality performance level all over the audio chain. Your trade-offs are way different from mines.
As I posted: I listen ( when driven audio items tests. ) to what I missed, to what is not in " there " or what is " exceptional different ", to what disappear ( including distortions. ), etc, etc. As Doug Sax answered on that Halcro link: " and I listened not so much to its virtues as to its faults ".
I have years posting: " loosing and adding the less to preserve the source signal integrity ", this is my main target. First than all I have to preserve the source signal integrity looking for accurate and neutral audio links all over the home audio system chain.
IMHO today what measure good sounds good too, not like in the old times when those vintage Japanese electronics always measured good but sounds bad, this IMHO does not happen almost any more: normaly what we heard today in current electronics/speakers/audio items is how it measures.
How accomplish or try to accomplish my main target?, other that my knowledge/experience level on music and audio subjects I have to design a " process that help me to understand what I'm listening under audio items comparisons and that help me to identify:different kind of distortions and different distortion levels, colorations, noises and the like " , that's where my process born and came " alive " years ago and over the time was and is " suffering " changes to improve and be not only better but more trusty.
I don't care about my " Japanece/Germans neighbourhood " and only take care about when that " person " has a superior knowledge/skills level than mine, that's it: when I can learn to improve and grow-up.
For years I care not only on my " Japanese/german " audio friemds, reviewers, audio retailers and the like till I take in count that I was not growing up or at least growing up to slow. Somedays one step a head and some other days two.tree steps back and many times only side steps.
IMHO something similar of what you are living with out knowingit. My advise about is that you take alone your " road " with no " Jurassic audio gurus " surrounded where you can't grow-up and only are loosing time and money, yes with a lot of fun but loosing at the end. IMHO there is no " signs " of your audio improvements.
Your " Lost Friends " in your virtual system is nothing less than the " Frustration Friends " where sooner or latter your today tube electronics will finish.
I know that you are not looking for excellence performance level on your system and certainly with those " Jurassic Park " audio items is impossible you can achieve excellence.
I will take that EMT Phonolinepreamp that you and your " Jurassic " friends name it: " ultimate machine ". For me an " ultimate machine " must be first than all ACCURATE and NEUTRAL and your unit is far away from there. There are many reasons why your " ultimate machine " it is not an ultimate machine: full of transformers where the signal suffer severe degradation ( the best signal transformer is no tgransformer. ), full of swtichs where the signal is degraded, tube inherent inaccuracies non-neutral colored noisy and distorted technology ( it does not matters design and first rate execution. ).
Dear Thuchan, the RIAA deviation on that EMT ( 20hz to 20khz. ) has a swing of 1db!!!!!!, this IMHO is non-tolerable to any today phono stage: this sole factor made that that phono stage can't " save " and mantain the cartridge signal integrity, instead of that only degrade the cartridge signal with inaccuracies/colorations and distortions that are not on the cartridge signal!!!!, so where you and the " Jurassic Park " seen the " ultimate machine "?. I don't care that you like it because that's not the subject.
The subject is to achieve excellence quality performance level and that unit can't do it. I know that you think that with your new " toys " you go several steps a head but IMHO you only give steps backward or in the best scenario: only a side step, but I doubt this last.
That's why is so important to have a " specific process to audio system/items evaluation ". It is almost impossible to know if you really advance or go back only with that " It's wrong but I like it ", can't do it for sure.
I was really benign with your EMT RIAA deviation because if you measure that RIAA maybe that deviation is over 1db and not only that but is almost sure that the left channel RIAA be different from the right channel RIAA as maybe there are differences even in the line stage frequency range/response for both channels and even its output level for both channels could have differences too.
I know what you are hearing not only because this EMT and your Wavacs but for what you report, example that you like it the TK3e. I can understand this because youare a rockie on MM/MI cartridges but in other areas you confirm what I'm saying.
We all know that analog is an imperfect medium but we don't have to increment those imperfections on each audio link that like the phono stage and say: " I like it ".
Accuracy is the name of excellence, with out accuracy it does not matters " how good it sounds ". Don't you think that is way better that something be accurate to the signal and at the same time Sounded Good?, certainly yes.
This is an example of the excellence level I'm looking for and that I already achieve with some of my audio items ( I'm not saying I'm done but I'm trying hard to be " there ". ):
https://picasaweb.google.com/104284617601331669309/1606201109?authkey=Gv1sRgCNrBhveq5uzC-AE#slideshow/5618984106525365922
that is the RIIA deviation ( both channels. ) on the phono stage I use.
https://picasaweb.google.com/104284617601331669309/1606201107?authkey=Gv1sRgCI3hj-juiKXOGA#slideshow/5618983008834878562
those are the same RIAA measurements on two top SS Phonolinepreamps.
Remember the 60K Phono Stage only german Vitus?, well it is not better.
The RIIA accuracy on my latest unit measured: 0.012db!!!! both channels!!!!: no differences in between.
This is only of the excellence example level I'm accustom and looking for.
No, you and me ( as many other persons in this forum. ) are listening different " things " and not because we don't:
""" knowing each other personally and also having had the chance to listen to each other system we might get closer to your objective parameters. " ++++, but because your trade-offs ( for say the least and be polite. ) are way different from mines.
Excellence against " I like it ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.