Why are subwoofers so polarizing?

I'm no engineer here, but I'm having a hard time following this.

Bo, are you basing your ridicule of the performance of the Velodyne and REL subs based on what you heard, or based on some test readings that you got?

What you are claiming strikes me as a bit odd. First, if you are using the REL to cover a frequency range up to 140hz, I think that you are using the REL for a purpose for which it is was not intended. Even REL says that their subs are meant to be a sub bass system. That is, they are meant to cover the lower frequencies for full range speakers.

Second, considering that you are running the sub up to 140hz to get a fuller sound out of the equipment, it seems to me that the deficiencies lie in the speakers being used, rather than the sub. You are using the sub to fill or bloat a frequency range which a speaker should be able to reproduce without the aid of a sub woofer. I would imagine that running a sub up to a frequency that high would have to have an impact on imaging.

In my system, I run a pair of Silverline Minuets with a small REL sub, which I have set to crossover at 50hz, and it sounds pretty darned good to me.

Although I can't comment on the Velodyne subs, it does seem to me that you are ridiculing the RELs for not being able to do something that they were never meant to do.

In the past we Always did use the Rel sub's to about 5 hz max more than the freq. respons were of the speakers freq. respons begin's. 3 years ago wenn we started with Audyssey we did start with 80hz. Because Onkyo is a THX receiver they start at 80 hz. 1 year ago Audyssey start using subwoofers till 120 hz. I never went this high because we had always trouble with all the Rel sub's ( Also with the more expensive ones like the studio)wenn we wanted to go to a higher freq. The first tests to 120 hz I did with the Monitor Audio PLW-15 with very promissing. Later with Audyssey Pro I even went to 140hz. With Audyssey Pro you can get a much better integration with your sub than what is possible by hand settings. One of my client called it voodoo. What he heard he could not believe. I call it stealth inegration, because it is that good. Above 80 hz low freq. are placeable. To 140 hz the sub go's further and voices and instruments are even better focussed and touchable. The show were I was the absolute sound, shopkeepers came to me on Monday. They never heard such a 3-dimensional image what was this touchable. In stereo and in Multi channel I had the same stunning sound. I compare the Monitor Audio sub's to Rel sub's. Former clients with Rel now buy the Monitor Audio sub's. I want my clients to get the best quality for there money. Wenn Rel would be the best I would have sold this. But.....time go's on and they are not the best anymore. I only sell the best to my clients. A brand I really don't care. Wenn later another brand will be better, this will be the next. Rel is not bad, but there are better ones.

Bo1972 is wrong again. Rel subs are fast, I have one mated to Maggies which are known to be fast transducers, and the match is very good.

Noooooooooooooooooooo...a rel sub is fast in your perspective. Compare the respons of a Rel sub to the respons of a Monitor Audio sub. In this perspective it is slow. I use the Rel sub's to compare. They are slower, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FACTS. This is not about a personal preference. Wenn the Rel would be better I would buy them myself. And I would sell them. I do consulting in sound and vision. I am Always looking for the best in every price tag and category. In Europe Rel has lost a big part of the market in the last 10 years. I do many tests to look for the best. Rel is not good enough anymore. We are 2013, time goes on and there are better ones. I do not say buy a Monitor Audio. I say to my clients; compare them and choose. You fould be a fool to go for less.

Bo1072, if I understand you correctly, your arguments are based on findings that you arrived at using an Onkyo A/V receiver. It is your further position that using a sub at up to 140hz does nothing to hurt the image of the music.

Sorry, but I'd have to experience this for myself. Personally, if I had a speaker/amp combo that needed reinforcing at 140hz by a sub, I'd change my combo.

What sort of mains are you running your tests with?

I mean, I don't own an Onkyo receiver or Monitor Audio sub, but assuming that the sub, when set at 140hz, has an upper roll off of 12db per octave, you're going to have a SUB carrying duties that extend just about into the mid range, which is where most of the sweetness of music resides.

Also, assuming that the lower roll off on the receiver is 12db per octave, we're going to have a bump in the bass from 70hz through 280hz, with both the receiver and the sub working to add to that frequency range. And, you're also saying that the Monitor Audio sub is able to do this musically, without bloat.

I don't know. I'd have to hear it to believe it. Of course, you could be right. Maybe my thinking is completely off.

As for answering the original question, I think that subs became popular because people wanted the room to shake when watching movies like Jurassic Park. I know I did. My first sub was a Paradigm PW15. It was a monster, but I found that when listening to music, it just made things sound bloated and the bass wasn't very tight. I think that many had the same experience that I did. I wound up just not using the sub, when I listened to music.

A year or so ago, I discovered the little REL and I started using a sub for music. I set it up as per instructions and man, it sounds good. It integrated very nicely. Now, I'm thinking that I might try a sealed sub (supposed to be better for music), but that's gonna have to wait until after a new amp.