After many years of being a professional musician and spending hundreds of hours in the recording studios on both sides of the glass, I believe that most listeners undermine the pleasure of the listening experience by listening too loud and deadening their ears.
As a resident of NYC, there are a million things here that make the ears shut down, just the way pupils close up in bright light. People screaming, trucks, subways, city noise. Your ears keep closing up. Then you go home and try to listen on the hifi, but your ears are still f'kd up to get to the point. Try this experiment.
Hopefully, you can all have some degree of quiet when you can sit down and listen. Start with a record or CD of acoustic music with some inner detail and tonality. I like to use the Naim CD with Forcione and Hayden, or the piano/bass CD with Taylor/Hayden. Just simple, relaxing music. Real instruments doin' real things.
Start by sitting back and leaving the volume just a little lower than you find comfortable. Just like you want to turn it up a bit, but leave it down. Sit back and relax. I would bet that in 7-10 minutes, that "too low" volume is going to sound much louder. That's because you're ears have opened up. Now, without changing anything, that same volume is going to sound right. Step out of the room for a second, but don't talk with anybody. Just go get a glass of water and come back - now, that same volume is going to sound louder than you thought.
Sit back down and listen for a minute or two - now, just the slightest nudge of the volume control upwards will make the sound come alive - the bass will be fuller and the rest of the spectrum will be more detailed and vibrant.
Try it - every professional recording engineer knows that loud listening destroys the subtleties in your hearing. Plus, lower volumes mean no or less amplifier clipping, drivers driven within their limits and ears that are open to receive what the music has to offer.
Modern acoustic instruments are nearly always designed to fill large acoustic spaces. They are loud instruments. Unless it's a purist recording with two microphones suspended in mid-air at a distance from the performers, typical recording technique is to position the microphones inches from the instrument. I argue that this combination of instrument type and recording technique allows the in-home audio playback SPLs to be lower than the performance SPLs amd still retain sufficient detail and immediacy. It's also my experience that purist recordings need to be played at high volume levels in order to sound correct.
Trelja, another good post. Bravo! It's not loud volume in it's self that is dangerous, but, loud volume for prolonged times. There are those that seem to listen to their systems nearly all the time. A love of music? Justification of expense? I can listen for fairly prolonged periods, but, just the act of seriously listening can become fatiguing. Unfortunately too much of todays pop music is recorded way too loud, and the subsequent lowering of volume destroys the dynamics. Too much of my favorite meal, too often, ruins that enjoyment too.
For me, the argument that a system played at 70 something dB is the height of resolution and therefore, audiophilia, has always sounded more like some sort of perverse blend of arrogance and defense mechanism on the part of its devotees.
The Equal Loudness (Fletcher-Munson) curves are such that if one listens to a 1 KHz tone at 70 dB, the corresponding 100 Hz and 10 KHz tones would need to be almost 80 dB to sound as if they're being produced at the same level. Reverse that, and if listening to those same 100 Hz and 10 KHz tones at 70 dB, the corresponding 1 KHz tone would need to be played at about 55 dB to sound in balance. Given that tone controls are considered anathema to the audiophile experience, it certainly wouldd be rare to see a system capable of that much correction - not that we'd even desire it.
I personally don't demand a high-end audio system be full range in the truest sense of things, but 100 Hz and 10 KHz are frequencies I most certainly consider fundamental. And while I know plenty of people who do, I believe one who listens at less than 80 dB, where the frequency spectrum is beginning to come into balance, is truly kidding themselves in trying to wear the badge of "audiophile". That person leaves an incredible amount of music outside of what is actually taken in. They may like the sound being produced, and the music may possess true and deep meaning, but it's the antithesis of reality, or even high-fidelity. At 85 - 95 dB, things have evened out nicely, and that is probably what could be considered a sweet spot.
By the way, very few people realize that OSHA recognizes the Fletcher-Munson curve, and set its guidelines (levels for which a person is not at any statistical risk for noise-induced hearing loss) for loudness in accordance with it. Beyond that, the SPL/time ratios (I think most of us are safely inside the lines) are as follows: 85 dB for 16 hours/day 90 dB for 8 hours/day 95 dB for 4 hours/day 100 dB for 2 hours/day
It all depends on the dynamic range of the music. A lot of my listening is to classical symphonic music, usually on well engineered recordings (meaning with little or no dynamic range compression). I would definitely feel that I'm missing out if I did not turn the volume up to some approximation of what I hear in a concert hall, and in so doing I have no concerns about effects on my hearing because average power levels are so far below the brief and infrequent peaks.
I once sat in the very front row at a concert at Tanglewood at which the BSO performed Prokofiev's "Romeo and Juliet." The closing passages contained probably the loudest sounds I have ever heard, aside from a 105mm howitzer that I once heard go off at a distance of about 30 feet.
While I would not want to be exposed to that sort of volume regularly, playing more typical symphonic music at less than say mid-hall volume levels I would consider to be a waste of the capabilities that I developed my system to be able to provide. With highly compressed rock music, it would be a completely different story, and concerns about my hearing would definitely be a consideration.
A good classical symphony has to be played at realistic levels to make it feel right and if I listen to a small jazz combo or voices, I want them "in my room". All else is less than satisfying for me.
The point I was trying to make was not that people should listen at low levels. I was trying to convey that the normal deadening of the ears due to worldly noise caused us to turn up the volume more than necessary to achieve individual bliss. Even to those who like to crank it, I suggest that, by starting softer than is normal for you, you will end up with a softer overall level.
when i listen at sound pressure levels approaching 85 db, my wife complains that the music is too loud. she is 20 feet away from the speakers and not in the listening room.
while one may miss certain detail at, say 80 db, hopefully, the brain will fill in some of the "empty spaces". one cannot always indulge in one's passions, unchecked.
in addition, one person's "realistic level", may exceed another person's threshold of pain.
I agree with Chayro. Better to start low and bring it up as needed. Part of the problem many of us face is little toy speakers and make believe woofers. Get some sizable horns and the dynamic capability of compression drivers. This enables one to enjoy the full dynamic potential of the music without resorting to overkill decibel levels. A 15 inch woofer is likewise a good idea. As the man said, you can't make 20 violins sound like a cello or 20 four inch drivers sound like a 15 inch woofer.
Wimpifikation..wonderful, a new great word, thanks Trelja. You can buy a little program for your iPhone, a SPL-meter. I tried it out at the last symphony concert I attended. Peaks there were at around 95db (Prokoviev "Classical Symphony"). At home with the same music it was at 88db peak for me to feel happy. A good classical symphony has to be played at realistic levels to make it feel right and if I listen to a small jazz combo or voices, I want them "in my room". All else is less than satisfying for me.
Lrsky is right by the way. At least I can corroborate the findings, because when sitting down to listen, I start out more softly first and crank up the volume until it feels "right". So insitinctivly, intuitively I obviously do the right thing here for once.
Besides, I have found, that audiophiles who listen unbearably loud, generally crank up their system too much to compensate for a lack of dynamic swing inherent in their set up. If the dynamics are realistic from pppp to at least fff you don't really have to listen at ear splitting levels to be satisfied. Just my two cents.
One can listen at high volume levels but the real question is how long can the ears tolerate that. Constant exposure to loud music is malicious to the ears in the long-run and can be a cause to tinnitus. Of course there is no harm in having a blast once in a while but it won't be doing any good to the ears with prolonged listening sessions. On the other hand, one can listen to music at low to moderate volume levels for hours without much issues. My perception of loud is >90dB.
As to realistic sound levels...I don't want to listen to rock or electronica at live levels all the time. These days I find most rock concerts too loud and it feels like my hearing is being damaged. Most of the time when I'm at home I know I'm listening to a reproduction and I don't pretend I'm at a concert. For some music like classical having the volume lower than realistic levels makes me listen more carefully and I end up enjoying it more because I'm concentrating harder. Don't get me wrong though, my system is also set to boogie and when it's time I let it loose and I'm glad I'm at home in the best seat in the house with better fidelity than most concerts I go to. It is nice to have the choice-something you don't get with live performances.
I was told by an audioligist some time ago, that NASA commissioned a study to find out why the astronauts had a difficult time hearing command even though their headsets were at a very high level. THAT was the problem. Someone, apparently not an audiologist, thought that for the astonauts to be able to hear Mission Control above the den of noise inside the spacecraft, that the 'phones' would have to be at a high level. That wasn't true, because as their study showed, the ears begin to shut down with extreme volumes. I am going on memory so this won't be right, but it went something like this. The study showed that: After continual 80 db virtually no loss 85 db neglible loss across the audio spectrum, 90 2/3db after 15 minutes, 95 6 db after 15 minutes 100 >6db, and so on. So the result was, that their 'turning up the volume' had the inverse effect of helping, and in fact shut down the pilot's ears. This information may be useful to audiophiles. The next time you begin listening, start at a lower volume, because, you're working against physiology by starting out too loud, it only serves to 'shut your ears down'. Hope this helps someone.
I agree with both points of view, but, more with Trelja's. I find that my home listening is a little lower in volume than what I typicaly hear at live venues, but, louder than what the average Joe plays in his home. I believe that most home listening rooms are too small to play at true live levels. On the other hand, I believe that many average Joe's might be offended by loud listnening levels in home envionments because they have been more often than not exposed to home systems going into distortion at higher volume levels. Once the average Joe can learn to relax without fear of impending distortion, he can enjoy more realistic volume levels. Let me repeat a story I've mentioned here before. Some years ago, I had a musician friend visit me with his trombone in tow. As soon as he came in the door, he commented that the volume being played through my system seemed rather loud to him. I replied that I thought the volume was in scale to the room. He then heard a track that he wanted to play along with, to his astonishment he couldn't play low enough to properly play along. Even instruments that are typicaly considered "soft", like acoustic guitars, clarinets, flutes, etc., will often sound louder when played in a domestic room, than a HiFi system playing "big" instruments like electric guitars, drums, horns, etc., in the same room. Without proper volume one can not appreciate the full scope of the intent of a symphonic orchestra, big band, or heavy metal group. Compressing volume, compresses dynamics and a sense of bass.
I'm sorry, but if you want to experience realism in this hobby, the so-called absolute sound, you need to listen at what approach realistic levels. Check out live, unamplified music and you'll get a true picture of the true volume an instrument is played. That should ALWAYS serve as the reference.
The laws of physics are still applicable, in this case, the Fletcher-Munson curve. Simply put, if you listen at lower volumes, you are losing a lot of musical information - most importantly in the lows.
I don't know about you, but I'll take my music straight up.
Hmm, looks like this is the Forcione fanclub. I will never make a decision on whether I like certain gear unless I've heard some of Antonio's "Live!" with it (+ a few other reference recordings).
Over the years I've made the acquaintance of a few people - including some that wanted to sell me something - who would tell me I should crank up the volume to really enjoy and be able to tell how good the gear is. Well no! Of course I'm not going to get live atmosphere (or am I?) but to experience fine detail, microdynamics, the beauty of the musical flow, the inner workings (I'll stop here before this becomes a philosophical essay) I know "my" volume is right.
P.S. I am however not exposed to N.Y.'s cataclysmic sonic tapestry P.P.S. Sometimes I do let the horses run free ;^)
Very well written. I always have a tendency to turn up the volume to hear more into the recording and ended up listening too loud. That's where frustration sets in and the listening session ended much earlier than I thought most of the time. I'm glad to know that more people are beginning to realize the importance of listening to music at comfortable levels and to protect the ears from permanent damage. By the way, I am a fan of Antonio Forcione too and his music does sound good.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
