Zany measurements and theories

"01-27-15: Onhwy61
The empirical evidence is that no one has reported any ill effects attributable to repeated playing using better quality equipment properly setup."

How do you know that? Its not like there's a hotline where people report this type of thing. One way or another, a record will wear out eventually, just from use, no matter how good the gear or setup is. Best you can do is prolong it from happening. But that's really not the issue here. This discussion is just about whether the record get really hot, and possibly deforms/melts when you play it. If all records do this, to some extent, its considered normal operation.

Honestly, the problem here is really 2 fold. First, I think many people, whether its in this thread, or any of the others, get caught up in the argument and want to win it, as opposed to finding out what the real answer is. For the most part, I think its unintentional, but its a factor none the less. Now, before anyone asks, yes, I have gotten caught up in this type of thing myself. I'm no different than anyone else.

The other problem is that there's not too much current info on anything involving vinyl playback. For the mainstream consumer, its a format that died sometime in the late 80's. But there is some information out there. And every time I see a comment on this issue, by someone that knows audio well, and is an expert on vinyl playback, they all say the same thing. The record gets very hot and/or melting occurs at the point of contact, when you play it. I just happened to see another comment when I was shopping on Needle Doctors web site. He's one of the last, big, well known vinyl experts. This is a direct quote from him pertaining to record care.

"Last, remember that every time you play a record, you are in essence damaging it. On a micro level, the diamond melts the groove as it passes through. The groove will wear down whether you like it or not, so just enjoy your records and do what you can to slow the deterioration. "

Its pretty much the same thing every other TT expert says. Now, I know that someone can argue that he didn't include scientific data or test results that can be verified. So, as far as winning or losing the argument goes, I loose by default. No question about it. So, back to reality, even though I lost the argument, I still can't find an expert in vinyl playback to say anything other than the record melts when you play it.

01-27-15: Zd542
JohnnyB53: "Then a dogma has once again risen out of worst-
case speculation of a theoretical scenario with no verification."

It's not speculation. The contact point does get very hot. I did list 2 publications in my last post that dealt with this topic.

If you want some type of scientific explanation, look at it this way: How could there not be heat generated when playing a record. There's friction. I has to heat up.

I never denied that it heats up. Of course it does and I've read the articles too. I'm saying that the dogma to cool your records for 24 hours before replay is idle speculation. In fact, it's empirically contradictory. At the very least an LP would be warm to the touch after playing, but it's at the same room temp it was when it started.

I've read articles about the vinyl going momentarily soft where the stylus passes. Some of these articles also say that the vinyl at the point of contact immediately cools and returns to its original formation after the stylus passes. Rodman explains very well why some momentary intense heat would not have a lasting effect. The hot spot is tiny and constantly moving. The overwhelming mass of the rest of the record acts as a heat sink so there are no lasting effects.

It's been working this way for 67 years.

There are a number of references cited, in the first post of the following thread: (http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=27421) No doubt; there's some interesting reading to be found. Especially the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society and Wireless World papers.

The empirical evidence I was referring to was Rodman's

I've got a number of test records, that I used in my shoppe, for setting up turntables. They were, of necessity, played multiple times, during a setup. They are still as pristine in function & sound as when I purchased them. Even the very high velocity, "Tracking Torture Test Tracks." My
favorite demo record tracks, were often played numerous
times, within a few minutes, to compare my various speaker
models to customers. That was in the 80's and I'm still
enjoying those vinyls, with no loss of presentation.

"01-27-15: Swampwalker
The empirical evidence I was referring to was Rodman's

I've got a number of test records, that I used in my shoppe, for setting up turntables. They were, of necessity, played multiple times, during a setup. They are still as pristine in function & sound as when I purchased them. Even the very high velocity, "Tracking Torture Test Tracks." My
favorite demo record tracks, were often played numerous
times, within a few minutes, to compare my various speaker
models to customers. That was in the 80's and I'm still
enjoying those vinyls, with no loss of presentation."

I have no doubt that he's telling the truth. I've had similar results myself. I think we lost track here because I was basing my answers on the OP's post. Look at it again.

"I have to say that I do accept stylus drag exists, however where on earth do people get:
1. Stylus getting to temperatures that can melt vinyl - if so we'd never play out records more than once
2. Our records get hit with tons of pressure - if so why are none of my records smashed"

That's an extreme view that just doesn't hold up. And the reason that it doesn't hold up is just what is in the quote you reference. He's making it out to be the record will be used only 1 time, and that's just blowing the whole thing way out of proportion. Now, as far as to how long you let the record cool after playing it, the recommendations from most of the experts that I've read or spoken to can range anywhere from 2-24 hours. Given that, we all make up our own best practices as to how long we let our records cool, if any. For me, when breaking in new carts, I've taken records that are in like new condition, and played the same side over and over again (wasn't something out of my collection, just music I didn't like), and didn't notice too big of a difference. A little, but not much. Was the wear due to heat? My best guess would be that it was a factor, but not the only one. But if you guys really want to find out for sure, why don't we split the cost on a really good thermal imaging camera? lol. Then we can argue about something new. What camera do we buy?