15" vs 18" subwoofer - which to buy?

Greetings Dgw;

Your sure to stir up some heated debate in your assessment of the Bag Ends comparative performance, yet Ill consider your remarks valid based on your previous equipment, all high quality stuff, money not being the issue.

I must also confess not to care to be misleading in my comments about products to other posters looking in however, that being said, I concur that the Infra 18 is a sealed {not tuned} enclosure that is both time and phase coherent that delivers bass information that's very controlled, detailed with excellent timing and pitch, just does its job and gets out of the way of the important mid range while disappearing into the stage when no low bass information is there, totally integrated into my system yet never, ever, letting you know its position --geographically speaking.

This really is a reference product that should be on anyone's short list for those seeking a low bass frequency specialist sub that has seamless integration, effortless speed, extremely low frequency output, ie. thinking about how realistic the huge pipe organ music with sustained continuous low frequency shuddering/energy is utterly and effortlessly reproduced not to mention stand up acoustic bass like that from the Ray Brown trio or Michael Arnopold from Patricia Barbers catalogue etc.. that's done seemingly with nadda missing, not a note!

Just wanted to add in that last little comment about the sense of spaciousness this sub imparts to better recordings, its almost the same sort of dimensionality tube seekers enjoy in their playback, my thoughts as to whats causing this is perhaps this sub picks up reverberation trails or echoes in studios and venues that most other subs seem to miss, thus contributing one more subtle spatial cue that will greatly enhance the visual glimpse into recorded performances-- most surprising in addition to the terrific bass . " other writers have also commented on this effect in professional reviews"

In my unbiased opinion - YES - one of the very best.

Regards /// Tim W...

As a DD-15 owner with a 2ch system, I'm with Flemke that the Vel was probably not set up correctly in the showroom. Few systems ever are, and this is particularly important with a sub. The DD has great setup utilities, but it still takes time & experimentation and a careful choice of connections & cabling to get it right. At this high level of performance, I'd bet that setup variables account for more variations in listening sessions than the choice of sub manufacturer.

As an extreme example, I was at a Magnolia the other day watching a couple listen to a demo of DSOTM through a basic REL sub. The setup was so bad that the sub was bloated horribly and way out-of-time with the main speakers to the point of laughter. But the customer & the salesman both seemed impressed, and the salesman just kept repeating "REL makes the best sub." Of course we are more discerning...

It's interesting how much passion gets into the sub debate regarding which hi-end piece to buy. I suspect that with fewer options to choose from (relative to the dizzying array of manufacturers building main speakers) the mind comfortably polarizes (ergo the tiresome REL vs. Velodyne debate). Much like in our presidential election, where the country polarizes with all its passions around a simple choice between two candidates at the top of our political system-- either of which will in fact probably end up business as usual.

Dave

The dd18 at the hifi house may not be set up right!!! and I bet over 60% of all people that own the dd18 do not have them set up correcty. That's just another thing that makes the infra sub 18 so great, it's easy to get great sound in any room. The servo chip and eq circuit rob the dd18 from fine detail of music, to much money went into the development of this. Servo's on subs in my view hurt instead of helping the sound. The signal is split apart so many times befor it gets to part of the sub that makes sound "the woofer".
The bagend sub extends to 8hz, even though you can't here it, it allows the sub with it's 400 watt class a/b amp enough headroom a full octave up to handle 16 hz pipe organ. Bagend uses ELF "extended low frequency'. It just works better by getting out of it's own way!!!

The DD-15 has 1/2 of 1 percent of distortion.
The setup is very simple and anyone who owns one should press the auto button. It's that simple.

Flemke, the DD auto setup is a good starting point that can be refined considerably using manual utilities. I believe the auto setup also requires 2.0 software.

Dgw7000, the Bag End ELF sub is intriguing & I hope to hear one someday. From what I read in the reviews, the design entails the unusual choice of a resonant frequency above the operating range of the sub. As a negative result, there is significant roll-off at low frequencies, requiring compensation from the amp that may limit headroom and increase distortion. But in return one gains the advantage of negligible phase shift throughout the sub's operating range. Sorry you don't care for servo controlled subs. The DD servo is variable and user-controlled and the servo is essential-- particularly with large-diameter, hi-mass cones-- to achieve the very low distortion measurement referenced by Flemke. As one reduces servo control on the DD, the bass gets warmer, looser, and less delineated--perhaps delivering more charge to the room, but short on the articulation and speed that I prefer in a high-quality 2CH system. As has been observed, most listeners (particularly in the showroom) tend to favorably perceive high distortion in the bass region as warmth and musicality. Very few systems offer the alternative of clean, extended bass, and this quality can be a little underwhelming at first. But once you get used to it you won't go back.

Dave