2008 RMAF – – – all things analog.

Sonofjim,

" ...Maybe it will lead to similar products at prices more within reach of the majority. Let's hope so."

I hope so, too. Saskia is a different beast, though. Still, maybe someday it will lead to alternatives that are within reach of more people.

Atmasphere,

"At lock-up, the motor draws 0.24Amps, that's 28 watts."

I'm sure Mark will be along, but my understanding of that particular motor is that it is a hysteresis eddy current motor that uses a capacitor, so that it can be run on single phase mains. Otherwise, it is a three phase motor. I believe Mark has made controllers for it which are successfully used by some Japanese customers. Anyway, the current draw is near thirty watts, but the output is substantially diminished because an eddy current motor is particularly wasteful with energy. It purposefully wastes the bulk of the energy by leaking between phases. This may appear to be a bad thing, but the motor is actually smoother running as a result...cogging is far less apparent. So, I take it that Mark was speaking of "applied" power, not consumption. My motor is even more wasteful, but it has twice the torque. The benefit of both motors would be more appropriately considered to be their moment of inertia, which is, as your example notes, rather impressive. To sum it all up, synchronous used in turntables are typically less wasteful than hysteresis eddy current ones, so one that is in a smaller package can actually be more powerful when measured by ordinary means.

Macrojack,

"I think the Saskia is merely a refinement of an old but sound approach to turntable design with over the top craftsmanship and optimized materials. Am I wrong about that?"

Yes, and no. It is true that it is traditional in many ways, but I tried to break some eggs, too. There are some new twists.

"I use a Technics SP-10 MK II because it is the most cost effective option for me. I can't pay the price of a Saskia.
And would I want to? Is it that much better than mine?"

Would Saskia be a substantial difference to you? That would be for you to decide, of course. One person who does own the SP-10 MKII has listened to Saskia extensively, however.

Here...
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1220542524

All that said, I believe the most important thing is that you enjoy the music for its passion. When I had nothing more than an old Dual 1019, which is many times inferior to the SP-10, I still listened to records, and I enjoyed them. It is nice being able to actually hear the decay of a piano note, however. :)

Best,
Win

Dear RMAF friends: Nice to read how much " fun " all of you had on the show not only hearing several different ( first time ) audio item/systems but more important meet each to other Agoner's: a unique opportunity!, I hope to attend next time.

There is no doubt that the Saskia TT is something to hear in the future and regarding the accuracy-speed stability TT performance is a little unfair to judge in a show environment specially for the belt drive ones that are the TT design that can/could " suffer " more at the shows on that regard due to a " dirty " electrical supply where the direct drive and idler drive designs " laugh " about ( for what posted Ralph his 208 is a healthy one too. ).

Obviously that the people that are showing the belt drive TTs have to have more care about and more care on the TT set up regarding accuracy-speed stability.

Any one of us are very sensitive to changes on pitch due to TT speed minute changes specially with instrument alone recordings: piano, horns, female voice, etc, etc, IMHO we don't need a " special " recording to hear small changes on TT speed.

As a fact I heard it on my Acoustic Sigature TTs when the drive thread is near the end of its life use and on the Micro Seiki too but when the drive thread is on " target " I can't hear any anomaly that I can say comes from a TT speed changes even with two catridges running at the same time, sometimes I can heard/hear that pitch changes that I know for sure comes in the recording and not due to my belt drive TTs.
In my direct drive Technics/Denon ones I never had any trouble about other that comes in the recording it self.

I heard Walker/Raven/Kuzma/Sota/SME/Rockport/Amazon/Well Tempered/Avid/Simon Yorke/VPI/Verdier/Voyd/Basis/Galibier/Garrad/ in home audio system or in a very well audio dealer set up ( I forgot Teres at Doug's place ) and that " pitch " TT anomaly almost never appear, in all those TTs set up the owner really take care about.
I heard too set ups whith some of the TTs name it that present/appear that pitch anomaly, so the set up is critical.

Regarding the stylus drag that Doug mentioned like one cause for the pitch anomaly is something controversial and till some one can/could prove/test/measure it in a scientific way IMHO ( and with my respect to Doug ) is only a " myth " , here I have to believe in measures more than " words ", a measure that can tell me which kind/level of speed change ( if any ) can suffer a 20-30kg Walker platter ( example ) due to stylus drag ( VTF: 1.25grs. ) at 33 and 45rpm.

Well, anyway great thread with very good " reviews " on the show from each of you: congratulations!!!!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Great show reports and thanks from across the Atlantic !!!

Dear friends: Some additional thoughts/experiences on TT accuracy/speed stability.

I prefer the DD TT concept and Idler one but I like the BD too. This one IMHO is the more " delicate/critical " on set up to achieve its top performance.

Like many of you know or already posted here the speed accuracy and speed stability in the very short time are two of the main subjects and targets in any TT.

IMHO in any good executed TT design we can achieve those speed targets but in the BD TT type we have to take care more in deep on the set up, my experiences about told me ( in no importance order. ):

to mantain ( checking time to time ) in pristine/clean condition the motor(s) pulley along the " belt " ( any build/typematerial ) it self.

to mantain in pristine/clean condition the side/around platter where the " belt " spin ( try not to touch the side platter with our hands because we can/could leave different kind of " dust/residues " that migrate down the side platter and could interfere with the interaction between belt and platter )

to mantain and check ( time to time ) in/the perfect level both: the TT and the motor TT.

to be sure to stay right on the distance between the motor and turntable that the manufacturer recommend.

if there is a place where is important to have a electrical power supply conditioner/regulator IMHO our TT(s) must be connected through it.

check that the speed on the TT is precise: 33 1/3 rpm and 45rpm. Sometimes we buy a TT that right from the beguin has speed problems, so we have to be sure that at least it has speed accuracy ( other than speed stability ). I remember years ago that the Avid Acutus and one of the Rega TTs were reviewed and those units show inaccuracy on the speed it self ( not on speed stability ), this is more common that what we think about.

any " belt " of any kind and of different build material has its own " compliance/elasticity " value and like a cartridge compliance: it will perform right on target till settle down so we have to check about time to time, specially when we change it. How much time that " belt " mantain its top operation characteristics? I can't say it, we have to be " alert " about.

some " belts " change its characteristicis when the temperature change so we have to take care about.

Obviously as first step we have to follow all the manufacturer advise on the whole TT set-up subject.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Doug: +++++ " (stylus drag induced), " ++++

+++++ " accuracy and stability on held notes is a function of platter rotational speed. Nothing else in an audio system damages pitch like a platter that can’t maintain speed accuracy and stability. " +++++

I have to return to the subject because this is at least the thrid time that you post ( on other threads ) about stylus drag/speed stability issue and IMHO when someone is so repetitive on a subject could tell me that that is what he is experienced about in his audio system or that have facts that prove what is posting about or maybe the " whole problem " comes from other " source ", the analog sound reproduction is very very complex to understand every single parameter and its relationship between all them. I don't know either if in reality someone convince you about more that you heard it.

About the stylus drag that you states affect the platter speed stability I would like that you think for a moment on this:

a 20-30 kg platter that is spining at 33 rpm and where there is a " belt/motor " that it is trying to mantain that speed or a DD high torque motor doing the same.

then think in a stylus with a VTF of 1.5grs line contact shape and 12cu on cartridge compliance that is " running/tracking " through the LP and suddenly " find " a heavy transient where the stylus goes on because the stylus does not stop on the transient but follow a head.

then think that the stylus drag/friction on those tansient could be in any place on the recording: out the LP, in the middle, at inner groves or anywhere.
I point out this because if you try with your hand to stop a running ( onn ) Walker platter or a Tehnics Sp-10 you can see that it is more easy ( well not so easy at all ) trying to stop the platter if your hands are at the outer of the platter than at the inner side. The same for the stylus example.

try to think too on the complex process about because in my example the stylus shape is line contact: what about a eliptical one or other shape? what if instead of 1.5grs the VTF is 0.80grs? what about if the compliance is 30cu instead 12cu? what about if the tonearm type is dynamicaly balanced one instead static one? what about if the tonearm friction is 20grs or 10grs? what about...? what about... ?,, really complex fro say the least.

Now, do you think that that pitch/speed platter un-stabilities that you heard comes from the stylus drag ( between other things )? , could you thing that maybe comes from other " sources " that he stylus drag? can your common sense confirm about?

Unfortunately there is no ( or at least I can't find it ) measures about where tell us the whole true.

I don't want to disturb you I only want that something that for me is a " myth " ( like many others in this beautiful hooby ) till can/could be tested on a scientific/measure way does not be take it like an absolute true specially for the " newcomers/rockies " to this forum where the important people like you IMHO have a critical responsability to give the best " help " to those new people and cetainly to many of us that does not have the whole know-how.

I don't think, like you, that the ones that think ( like me ) that sometimes that wavering comes in the recording are totally wrong because not only for what I already posted somewhere and what I posted here but because exist errors in the recording process as there are errors that comes directly from the " players/musician ".

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.