2008 RMAF – – – all things analog.

Quiddity, your 2-watt figure regarding the Empire motor is incorrect- by a factor of 10. At lock-up, the motor draws 0.24Amps, that's 28 watts.

If you turn the motor on for just an instant and then try to stop it by grabbing the motor shaft with your fingers, you stand a good chance of the motor spindle cutting through your skin. You can turn the turntable on while holding the platter so it won't move, then turn the unit off, and then release the platter- the flywheel action of the motor will set the platter spinning.

Obviously it needs no help getting the platter up to speed or keeping it on speed, regardless of the music or tracking weight imposed. The speed stability of Empire turntables has long been one of the best in the business. That is one of the things that made them such a good candidate for update.

I think you have to view something like the Saskia as an artistic statement, unlike similarly priced Wilson speakers which are mass production merchandise, and therefore more appropriate to your BMW analogy.

On the other hand, in what way is an idler drive turntable cutting edge technology?

I think the Saskia is merely a refinement of an old but sound approach to turntable design with over the top craftsmanship and optimized materials. Am I wrong about that?

I use a Technics SP-10 MK II because it is the most cost effective option for me. I can't pay the price of a Saskia.
And would I want to? Is it that much better than mine?

Sonofjim,

" ...Maybe it will lead to similar products at prices more within reach of the majority. Let's hope so."

I hope so, too. Saskia is a different beast, though. Still, maybe someday it will lead to alternatives that are within reach of more people.

Atmasphere,

"At lock-up, the motor draws 0.24Amps, that's 28 watts."

I'm sure Mark will be along, but my understanding of that particular motor is that it is a hysteresis eddy current motor that uses a capacitor, so that it can be run on single phase mains. Otherwise, it is a three phase motor. I believe Mark has made controllers for it which are successfully used by some Japanese customers. Anyway, the current draw is near thirty watts, but the output is substantially diminished because an eddy current motor is particularly wasteful with energy. It purposefully wastes the bulk of the energy by leaking between phases. This may appear to be a bad thing, but the motor is actually smoother running as a result...cogging is far less apparent. So, I take it that Mark was speaking of "applied" power, not consumption. My motor is even more wasteful, but it has twice the torque. The benefit of both motors would be more appropriately considered to be their moment of inertia, which is, as your example notes, rather impressive. To sum it all up, synchronous used in turntables are typically less wasteful than hysteresis eddy current ones, so one that is in a smaller package can actually be more powerful when measured by ordinary means.

Macrojack,

"I think the Saskia is merely a refinement of an old but sound approach to turntable design with over the top craftsmanship and optimized materials. Am I wrong about that?"

Yes, and no. It is true that it is traditional in many ways, but I tried to break some eggs, too. There are some new twists.

"I use a Technics SP-10 MK II because it is the most cost effective option for me. I can't pay the price of a Saskia.
And would I want to? Is it that much better than mine?"

Would Saskia be a substantial difference to you? That would be for you to decide, of course. One person who does own the SP-10 MKII has listened to Saskia extensively, however.

Here...
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1220542524

All that said, I believe the most important thing is that you enjoy the music for its passion. When I had nothing more than an old Dual 1019, which is many times inferior to the SP-10, I still listened to records, and I enjoyed them. It is nice being able to actually hear the decay of a piano note, however. :)

Best,
Win

Dear RMAF friends: Nice to read how much " fun " all of you had on the show not only hearing several different ( first time ) audio item/systems but more important meet each to other Agoner's: a unique opportunity!, I hope to attend next time.

There is no doubt that the Saskia TT is something to hear in the future and regarding the accuracy-speed stability TT performance is a little unfair to judge in a show environment specially for the belt drive ones that are the TT design that can/could " suffer " more at the shows on that regard due to a " dirty " electrical supply where the direct drive and idler drive designs " laugh " about ( for what posted Ralph his 208 is a healthy one too. ).

Obviously that the people that are showing the belt drive TTs have to have more care about and more care on the TT set up regarding accuracy-speed stability.

Any one of us are very sensitive to changes on pitch due to TT speed minute changes specially with instrument alone recordings: piano, horns, female voice, etc, etc, IMHO we don't need a " special " recording to hear small changes on TT speed.

As a fact I heard it on my Acoustic Sigature TTs when the drive thread is near the end of its life use and on the Micro Seiki too but when the drive thread is on " target " I can't hear any anomaly that I can say comes from a TT speed changes even with two catridges running at the same time, sometimes I can heard/hear that pitch changes that I know for sure comes in the recording and not due to my belt drive TTs.
In my direct drive Technics/Denon ones I never had any trouble about other that comes in the recording it self.

I heard Walker/Raven/Kuzma/Sota/SME/Rockport/Amazon/Well Tempered/Avid/Simon Yorke/VPI/Verdier/Voyd/Basis/Galibier/Garrad/ in home audio system or in a very well audio dealer set up ( I forgot Teres at Doug's place ) and that " pitch " TT anomaly almost never appear, in all those TTs set up the owner really take care about.
I heard too set ups whith some of the TTs name it that present/appear that pitch anomaly, so the set up is critical.

Regarding the stylus drag that Doug mentioned like one cause for the pitch anomaly is something controversial and till some one can/could prove/test/measure it in a scientific way IMHO ( and with my respect to Doug ) is only a " myth " , here I have to believe in measures more than " words ", a measure that can tell me which kind/level of speed change ( if any ) can suffer a 20-30kg Walker platter ( example ) due to stylus drag ( VTF: 1.25grs. ) at 33 and 45rpm.

Well, anyway great thread with very good " reviews " on the show from each of you: congratulations!!!!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Great show reports and thanks from across the Atlantic !!!