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Andra II speaker tilt/effective tweeter height

Some time ago I had B&W 802Ds and Eggleston Andra IIs in my room at the same time. These speakers are very distinct from one another, and it was interesting to compare their relative response to variables in positioning, associated gear, and so forth, but one area had me flummoxed: There was nothing I could do in terms of speaker position, toe-in, toe-out, room treatments, cables, wires, amps, bi-amping, bi-wiring, preamps, or digital front end that would allow the Andra IIs to approach the level of detail of the 802Ds, or bring down the detail in the 802ds to that of the Andra IIs. And the Andras sound a bit "tipped down" to me in my room relative to the B&Ws and even generally relative to various other speakers and other systems. In the end I concluded that I prefer the Andra IIs, and I no longer have the B&Ws. But it has always nagged me that the Andra IIs are "tipped down" so to speak and I was not able to alter that presentation with gear changes, toe-in, etc.

The Andra IIs are built such that they tilt back and the speakers fire slightly upward. My listening position is almost 12 feet from the speakers, and the tilt causes the tweeter to "aim" about 2 feet over my ears. The B&W tweeter fires parallel to the floor. Anyway, while reading a speaker review a couple days ago the light went on! The reviewer noted that the speaker measurements went south in the upper octaves when measurements were taken even a few inches out of the plane of the tweeter. So I proceeded to tilt the Andra IIs forward such that the tweeter aims parallel to the floor, essentially right at my head in the listening position. Without other speakers to compare to, I cannot say that the relative tip-down has been turned around entirely (I don't want to do that), but I have remedied the one nagging deficiency in my perception of the Andra II. It is definitely and pleasantly more detailed in this configuration, and I perceive it to be considerably less "tipped down". And the tilt did not degrade imaging or move the soundstage perceptibly (my room is dedicated and heavily treated, which may provide a bit of flexibility in that regard).

Anyway, I thought this experience might be helpful to other struggling knuckleheads like me, if there are any.

Carry on.
der
8 responses Add your response
der OP
38 posts
 
Kurt, I am biamping with two BAT Vk600SE amps, each configured with a bridged input so I need onlya sinble interconnect to the amp. BAT Rex pre. Sometimes I switch in Krell 750s, but they work poorly with the BAT pre, so I use an EMM DCC2se as the pre when the Krells are plugged in. The wires are Transparent Musiclink Super on the bottom and Synergistic X2 on the top. I have switched these wires around to very little effect.

Danny, I don't get that sensation that things are close to me when I use the extreme toe-in. That would be like trying to read with the book too close. I think I'd change that up pretty quickly, too.
rockadanny
1,226 posts
 
I found crossing in front interesting for vocals and small number of instruments - as if player was 2 feet in front of me - kind of spooky. But for the sake of all kinds of music over all I ended up toeing them to cross about 2-3 feet behind my head. Nice soundstage width.
rockadanny
1,226 posts
 
Der - Interested to hear your findings. I have Fontaines (top 3/4 of Andras) and do notice a difference when I stand. When I set mine up I levelled the small top surface. I figured that was what I was supposed to do. Mine are about 11' away. For me, not sure it's better, just different. Would also be interesting if an EgglestonWorks person could respond.
kurt_tank
1,189 posts
 
I too have found that a good about of toe-in is required in my room as well. (Not quite as much as yours, Der, as my speakers are toed-in so I can just barely see the inside side panels from my listening position.)

Question: What type of speaker cables are you using?
And are you bi-wiring them or using jumpers?
der OP
38 posts
 
Perhaps the angle has something to do with time alignment. I do not know. But there are two indentical midrange drivers, one above the other. If time alignment was an intended design element embodied in the tilt of the speaker, wouldn't these drivers be time aligned with one another only at listening positions along the axis perpendicular to the face of the cabinet, where they are equidistant from the listener? So in the end there would be only one time-aligned listening height at a defined listening distance? Hmmmm. The cabinet tilt-back does look nice, though, and I think these guys often get way too much credit for their design choices.

As for toe-in, I do indeed toe them in, and after much trial and error I prefer toe-in such that they cross about a foot in front of the listening position. This gives great imaging--it seems to be best at keeping sound collapsing back into the speakers, so to speak. And it does help HF extension. Even so, even with sizzling Krell FPB 750 MCX amps the Andra IIs seem to me to remain somewhat dark until the tweeter is aimed a bit lower than intended.

I intend to do some Room EQ Wizard measurements to see how the tilt affects upper octave measurements relative to the rest of the spectrum.
rockadanny
1,226 posts
 
Aren't they angled such to time-align the drivers? Have you tried toeing them in for better HF response instead of tilting them down?
der OP
38 posts
 
It was surprising how high the tweeter was aiming when I checked it by placing a laser "tape measure" flat against the tweeter surround and noting where the light hit a target at the listening position. To get my head up there I'd have to sit in a booster seat on a tall barstool! I have probably not ever done that because my kiester won't fit in a baby seat these days, and they didn't have baby booster seats back when I was a baby, so I sat on my mom's lap on the barstool back then. But sitting on my mom's lap would be impractical in my listening room now. Hence the tilting experiment.

In any case, the spikes aren't sufficiently adjustable to tilt the speakers as far as I needed to tilt them. But I haven't yet put the spikes on anyway. So for starters I just placed a 3/4 inch board under the rear feet of the speakers. As a semi-permanent solution I will ask a local machine shop to make some threaded plugs of various lengths to screw into the feet where the spikes otherwise go. If I ever settle on speaker position and a final tilt angle I'll have some short spikes made for the front.

I most definitely appreciate those features of the Andra IIs that you mention, imaging and soundstaging. Bass is spectacular now that my room is fairly stuffed with fiberglass broadband absorbers. Overall the Andra IIs are excellent, but perhaps just a tad dark as you say, particularly for those of us suffering the ravages of time. Not bad at all, I agree (or else I'd definitely have something different by now). If this tilting trick stands the test of time, I might consider my system sufficiently well balanced and maybe even stop buying things for a while!

kurt_tank
1,189 posts
 
So, as a fellow Andra II user, I am interested in how you achieved the tilting forward of the speakers. (Did you back out the spikes in the rear to lengthen them a bit? Or did you place something under the rear spikes?) To be honest, in my room, the tilting back problem of the tweeter that you describe does not seem to be nearly as much. (Perhaps only a few inches.) But if it can increase the treble response, even a bit, it might solve the problem I describe below, (although I doubt it will, but it does give me something else to play around with).

As I mentioned, I too have a bit of a treble problem. But to be honest, I think that it is more of the combination of the Lamm M2.1 amps (known to be just a touch on the dark side), with the Jena Labs Pathfinder speaker cables (also known to be just a touch on the dark side), and combined, they add up to a bit more darkness than I would prefer. It is not bad mind you, but still, I would prefer to have a more extended treble response than what I currently have. (However, everything else about the sound from my system is pretty magnificient. From the tight bass response, to the wonderful mid-range, and even into the lower treble region. And the imaging and soundstaging is some of the best I have ever heard, (and definitely the best I've ever heard in my system!) I used to have a bit of a mid-bass hump, but I have started doing some minor room treatments, which seems to have solved that problem.

My two cents worth.
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