Anyone listen to Zu Audio's Definition Mk3?

>>One area I haven't been able to get "right" in my current room is the truly 3D holographic effect....Do the Mk IV's improve upon the previous models regarding this attribute?<<

I've never had any trouble getting multi-axial dimensioning from any generation Definition in my room, but for anyone who has, I have to say that Def4 will improve your chances considerably. It's unity of presentation and the greater precision of projection off the nano FRDs have yielded better spatial presentation for me. Take some time to get toe-in right for your room and listening position and you should be able to snap into focus a nicely dimensioned soundstage.

>> I swear I could make out the lips, neck, body, legs of musicians...it was so "dense, palpable, and 3D" that it really was hard to believe. Is this kind of experience possible with the Mk IV's and a proper SET? <<

Normally I'd say to someone who seeks this but has never heard it that they have to question whether they are able to hear this way. Not everyone processess the sonic cues that register on their eardrums. But since you have heard it prior, then I say yes, and in fact well-executed SET (wideband, fast, good unity) gets you closer than push-pull topology, generally. But sloppy SET won't.

>>...but am curious if an 845 SET with the Def Mk IV's has the potential to duplicate what I heard with the Proac/Cary 805?<<

Yes, but again it depends upon specific amp choice, and then you can usually improve all aspects via careful replacement of stock tubes. Generally, 300B amps don't have the bass discipline to be effectively paired with Definitions of any version. There are exceptions, but they usually aren't cheap. The Audion Golden Dream, Coincident Frankenstein and Audion Silver Night are in the realm of Def-compatible. Also, 300B push-pull amps. But the 845 and 211 big-glass tubes are much better mates to Definitions, if part of very well designed and executed circuits.

>>I refuse to trade any of the strengths of my current system though!<<

Start with your Atmasphere and draw your own conclusions. It's a great combination to begin knowing your next move, if one is warranted.

Phil

Charles,

I've heard various PHY-based speakers, including some Tonian, Ocelia and DIY, but not with my own room or gear. I'll say that PHY speakers haven't shown me the same combination of efficiency, shove and tonal neutrality that Zu has achieved in recent years (Druid 4-08, Superfly, Def4) but the essential elements of holistic character, good-to-great tone density, speed and phase-coherence are quite audible in PHY-based speakers. And, I'd understand someone either subjectively preferring their euphonics, or in the absense of having heard a Def4, preferring a PHY full ranger or coax "1-1/2 way" over *any* passive crossover multi-driver speaker. PHY speakers don't have the same power handling as Zu, nor that sense of ability to convey both voices and violence that Zu does well. But that driver is fast and articulate and Ocelia instances of PHY in particular produce beautiful sound. I'm much less endorsing of the ribbon tweeter Tonian uses in most of its speakers, but others may disagree.

At two price ranges in the current line, Zu has achieved truly exceptional balance and holistic presentation in Superfly and Def4, by any standard, with the rest of the line representing really well-engineered and chosen compromises for reasons of market-expanding cost and I expect more of both are coming. With all these full-range-driver based speakers, the power amplification takes on a disproportionately large role in defining the character of the system.

Phil

Phil,
Thanks for your reply,
My Coincident SET amp and speaker are fabulous together as would be expected with the same designer. I find your experience with the DEF MK IV. very interesting and I`m attracted to well implemented simplicity.In general simple designs sound better to me than the complex designed components.The crossoverless speaker should in theory sound pure and have natural tone. I`d really like to hear this speaker one day.The Frankenstein very easily drives my 3 way(2 xover speaker) it should be able to drive the even simpler DEF IV.

>Charles1dad - "In your case OTL seems to fit your desires, for Phil and myself SET is preferred"<

To this point, OTL has been my preference on appropriate speakers; however, in fairness, I have only tried one SET with the Zu's in my room. The Melody 300B SET mono's were definitely not an improvement even over a modest Marantz SS integrated, much less the Atma M60's. That being said, the most beguiling sound I've heard was in a dealer showroom with Proac Response speakers and Cary 805 SET. So, I suppose I'm holding out hope that the right SET can bring me even closer to the music?

>Agear - "By 'holy grail', I did not imply your quest for 3D tangibility was mystical or unrealistic"<

I think I know what you meant, though it's elusiveness for most of us certainly makes it seem "mystical" at times.

>Agear - "I too have made inept, stumbling attempts at system building while chasing various sonic attributes"<

I could not have described my own pursuits at times any better. It is this concern with "sonic dead-ends" that makes me cautious about wholesale changes. Within the last few months, I toyed with the idea of buying the Coincident Pure Reference Extreme. On paper, it seems to have much of what seems to work for me (easy to drive, full range, simple crossovers) with the potential for improved 3D soundstaging and the possibility of finding the "holy grail" with the right amp. Unfortunately, I had to stop the insanity and recognize all the things that I absolutely love about the Zu's. The potential for chasing a few possibly better sonic attributes while unknowingly (at first) giving up some of what I love from the Zu's is too big of a risk for me. Make sense?

>213Cobra - "Start with your Atmasphere and draw your own conclusions. It's a great combination to begin knowing your next move, if one is warranted"<

If I understand you correctly, you are saying to experiment with amps, presumably good SET's, and determine if this is the correct path for me? That is, indeed, what I am thinking of doing.

Phil, I've read much of what you have written on the Audion 845 Black Shadows in this and other threads. I've researched Sophia, Audion, Cary, and Mastersound 845 amps fairly thoroughly. From what I have read, I think the Audion may be closest to what I'm looking for, IF SET is what I'm looking for. Does that make sense? Are there any distributors in the US that would allow an in-home audition?

Germanboxers,
I understand your point,the Melody 300b SET could just be a mediocre SET amp. There`re so many 300b amplifiers available in the marketplace and at all levels,from sublime performance to poorly implemented.As expected transformer,power supply and parts quality can make or break a SET(or any amp for that matter). Gon member Morganc for example uses my amp with his Zu speaker and seems to love it(there`re certainly other upper quality SET choices), Phil makes a very strong case for high quality 845 based amps. It`s great to have viable choices. That 3-D magic you seek is certainly there with my Takatsuki-300b tubed Frankenstein/Coincident speaker(in abundance). I have no doubt that this is also very possible with your speakers.
Regards,