Are REL the most Musical Subs?
Forgive me if I have created a redundant thread. I don’t usually post in the Speakers area.
I have a Paradigm sub in my basement HT that has apparently given up the ghost after about 20 years. I’m not a huge bass listener. We used to use the area for movies but lately a different room of the home has taken that over. I listen to classical music and the system gets used primarily for SACD and Blu Ray. No desire for multiple subs. The front speakers are full range, setup is 5.1
I added a REL sub to my 2 channel system a few years ago, an REL, and have been delighted with the results. It doesn’t boom at me. What it does do is add the low level percussion effects that composers such as Mahler, Shostakovich , and modernist composers add to reinforce bass lines. I never realized, for example, how many gentle tympani and gong effects are in Shostakovich Babi Yar symphony.
The REL integrates all of this naturally without calling attention to itself. The Paradigm in the basement never did this but it was an older design and more budget friendly.
So I am inclined to replace the Paradigm with another REL in the basement but was wondering what the current thinking is with subs. I haven’t paid much attention lately and the stuff that I have pulled discusses multiple subs, Atmos, etc, and doesn’t seem to address my needs.
Placement will be different as well. The current sub is placed between the front speakers, and the gear rack is on the other side of the room. 20 years ago I had the energy to bury the cables next to a baseboard heat along the all, after schlepping the sub over the basement testing placement spots,but with advances in DSP I’m now hoping to place the sub next to the rack
The Rythmik amps have high level inputs too. In addition to the crossover adjustments it’s more flexible with continuous 0-180 phase control, damping and extension adjustments, a PEQ to tame the rooms main room mode. It’s recommended to use the low level input for better sound quality with these subs. Also these subs can go down to 17hz.
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The Rythmik servo-feedback system also compensates for the increase in voice coil temperature, which all woofers suffer from, regardless of their excursion capabilities. Rythmik offers sealed subs with a range of woofer diameters: 8", 12", 15", and 18", and dual opposed/double 15". Rythmik designer/owner Brian Ding states all his subs are equally "fast". Fast is more related to woofer "settling time" (returning to "zero" when the signal stops) than anything else. Of course a poorly-braced enclosure (Tekton anyone?
@mijostyn: Oh yeah, the Eminent Technology TRW-17 is unique all right. It doesn’t propagate sound waves with a woofer at all!
The dipole cancellation compensation circuit incorporated into the plate amp of the Rythmik Audio/GR Research OB/Dipole Sub does not "compensate for serious flaws". Dipole cancellation is not a flaw, but rather an inherent characteristic of dipole subs and loudspeakers. Arnie Nudell incorporated large "wings" on either side of the midrange/tweeter drivers in the Infinity IRS to prevent dipole cancellation. Siegfried Linkwitz and Danny Richie use either "M" or "H" frames in their OB/Dipole subs, for the same reason. The Rythmik dipole circuit progressively boosts the signal as frequency drops, resulting in flat response to 20Hz. I’ll say it again: The only people who don’t know how good the Rythmik Audio/GR Research OB/Dipole Subwoofer sounds are those who have not heard it. I’ve owned servo-feedback subs before (in the Infinity RS-1b), but the OB/Dipole Sub is in a completely different class. It sounds very different from my Rythmik F15HP pair, and actually sounds more like the bass panels of my Magneplanar Tympani T-IVa speakers than anything else.
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@bdp24 wrote:
How would it do so - other than acting as a limiter? This debate primarily has your usual, lower efficiency and sealed sub design in mind that is built around a small, restricted size factor. As such heat dissipation from voice coils will be an issue eventually, but thermal limitations are not inherent to a wider design range of low frequency augmentation options that have higher efficiency as a core trait (of course with added overall size as a necessary implication) - certainly not in the context of domestic use.
But this comes at the cost of eating away of the headroom that might (or might not) have been available initially, only exacerbating the issues that come from lower efficiency and what follows here both thermally and mechanically. If you multiply the number of such subs used to appropriately accommodate the clean SPL envelope that’s required, you would be able to at least partially alleviate this issue while also opting for a DBA approach, albeit at a higher cost. On the other hand, when you have a pair of corner mounted, pro B&C 15"-loaded 20cf. per cab tapped horn subs with 97dB sensitivity (+ boundary gain) that deliver air-shaking +105dB levels at the listening position down to 20-25Hz, all the while exciting the woofer cones to only vibrate a few mm’s, you know you have actual and usable headroom in abundance and a wholly effortless reproduction at any desirable SPL. There’s no way to cheat around that other than blunt, core physics and letting size have its say, and don’t tell me audiophiles don’t need that kind of effortless bass delivery; if they heard it they’d most likely crave it, if it wasn’t for the size of such things.
The same could be said of those who haven’t heard properly designed and constructed high efficiency DIY sub designs (i.e.: not restricted to one or a few brands), sans all of your EQ-boosting, servo feedback, dynamic limiting, ultra high power demand and other electronic-digital trickery that will not be needed here (other than a quality DSP that will act as an elaborate crossover device). If anything it’s the purist subwoofer approach, and it could be even more so with the use of outboard quality amps instead of cheap plate dittos, etc. |
) can make a sub (or speaker) sound "slow". But the major cause of bass overhang is room modes.