Attention Scientists, Engineers and Na-s


Isn't it funny how timing works. With all the different discussions on proving this, show me fact on that and the psycho acoustical potential of the other thing an article comes along with the same topics and some REAL potential answers. I received my newest copy of "The Audiophile Voice" Vol.7, Issue1 today and on page 16 is an article written by David Blair and Bill Eisen titled "In The Matter Of Noise". The article focuses on disturbance noise but has some reference to thermal noise, low frequency noise and shot noise, and our ability to measure these noises with the equipment of today. We have measured noise as low as 6x10 to the power of -5, or approximately a few cycles per day. We have also found through laboratory testing that the human brain is stimulated with frequencies from just above 0Hz to just below 50kHz. U.S. Department of Defense documents also show studies of low frequency activity below measurable levels and there various affects.
The article then begins to talk about out of band (hearing) noise and in band noise produced by our electronic equipment and the potential of these noises effecting our sound system. The assumptions are that "disturbance noises rob our systems of dynamics, low-level information, tonal purity and stage depth". These effects are for the most part overlooked and misunderstood by the scientific communities. They say they think that our speakers being hit with "massive quantities of R.F.I. are affected" A very good quote referring to power filters was "Effective noise control imposes no sonic tradeoffs or downside." How often have the discussions here on Audiogon focused on what they are doing? A very interesting comment was that Teflon is capable of carrying 40-Kilovolts static charge, and the industry is touting this as a great insulator for audio signals, that's scarey!
Now I bring this to light because I believe the view of the "Scientists and Engineers" here on Audiogon is so narrow that they are failing to see the exciting challenges in front of them. If all these noises do exist, which they do, and they can be transmitted and received through our systems, isn't possible, just maybe feasible that the insulation of our wires, the casing of our dedicated lines the size and shape of the conductor could, just maybe effect the sound? Isn't it even possible that forces set off by electrical components could be interfering in some so far unmeasured and inaudible way affecting the sound. Do you all test within the full spectrum of 0Hz to 50Khz for every possible situation? Or is it possible, just ever so small of a chance that you are overlooking a whole new science yet unexplored. Doesn't that, even slightly excite your little scientific fossils?
Man if I was younger, healthier and wanted a challenge. This is a career if you'd just climb out from behind you oscilloscopes and spectrum analyzer and see the world is indeed still spinning, and yes, it is 2001. Remember how 30 years ago 2001 was going to be so exciting. What the hell have the Scientist, Engineers and Na-sayers who tote there stuff here on Audiogon done for the advancement of science. Anyone, have any of you really broken through! J.D.
128x128jadem6
Fpeel: in what way do the "non-believers" inhibit reasonable exchange? There's no insistance that "if something can't be measured it must be psychological." No, the scientific approach would be to be open-minded; that is, "go ahead, prove it." Either measure it and show the results, prove that the effects are audible in double-blind testing by correctly identifying A or B a statistically significant number of times, or explain how it works so others can investigate the phenomenon. Nobody's offered any of these.

Testimonials of "I'm listening to a stock power cable. My, it sounds harsh. Now I'm listening to a Shunyata. Wow, so much more depth and clarity; it's not even subtle!" do not constitute proof or even reliable evidence. It's not being closed-minded to press this point.

Scientific progress is not scattershot. It is based on accumulated knowledge and understanding and continual examination. Even progress based on unforseen discoveries does not develop without understanding the discovered phenomenon. This takes investigation of the discovery. Without understanding there is no progress. Simply asserting that this power cord or that will affect a device's audio performance with no plausible explanation or proof is not understanding. Asserting that power cords are outside the realm of understandable technology also is not understanding, and it's just plain silly to boot. If something previously unknown is occurring with power cords, then please enlighten us on what's going on. Write a paper on it and submit it to the Audio Engineering Society for peer review. Otherwise, go join Pons and Fleischmann with their "cold fusion" scam.

Science doesn't have to investigate every imaginable allegation to maintain credibility or to remain open-minded. If someone asserts that a ball tossed straight up into the air will sometimes float there and not fall back down, it's up to that person to go ahead and prove it by repeatable means; it's not up to the disbelieving scientist to spend the rest of his waking hours tossing a ball straight up to prove that it'll never happen.

Likewise, if someone asserts that contrary to understood physical principles of resistance, inductance, and capacitance, something is going on in wire such that certain braiding techniques and pretty insulation will affect audio signals, or will somehow affect the AC power and somehow improve the audio performance of the device it's attached to, then go ahead: prove your assertion.

To me, it's reasonable to believe that if a system sounds superb with designer power cords and interconnects and speaker wire, it'll also sound superb with stock power cords and interconnects and speaker wire (of adequate gauge), and for a lot less money.
Hello 702, there is one basic mistake in your assumption:
"We" are not trying to offer scientific proof for what we maintain we hear. All what we are saying is that " there is something. " It is not necessarily our concern, if science agrees with us or not. Even if we were of scientific bend or training, here we are hobbyists out to enjoy ourselves, not scientists. However we are tired of being ridiculed or being taught boring lessons in schoolboy physics or elementary psychological testing routines by people who have no clue about the history of science or, worse, of epistemology and theory of knowledge. If they had, they would get off their occasionally asinine high horses, because they would know that for the last 350 years there have been discussions like ours going on ad nauseam, about people who have maintained that they were on to something, being ridiculed and persecuted by the mainstream . Of course there was snake oil and charlatans, but more often than not,science had to acknowlege that assumptions previoulsy being persecuted as false, did have their objective foundations in science after all. Messmer comes to mind here, as just one example. So I am afraid that I have to answer, permission granted Redkiwi I hope, also to your sermon with a hearty RHUBARB!
Hi 70242, exotic cable designers do have some thingies which they cannot publish for science sake. They have to survive to fight another cord/conditioner battle in the commercial reality.
i'm technically trained for my profession in electronics & electrics and an AES member. For the love of reproduced music i'm also a severe case of "audiophilisis", a Believer. My tech knowledge is sufficient for my day job, but i'm not always able to understand completely why there are sonic differences i could hear between designer & stock cords. I choose to pursue my hobby to the fullest, enjoying the music with just that little bit more clarity and realism which i could achieve with good designer interconnects, conditioners and powercords. I'll try to figure out why or read up maybe some day, but waste no time now, enjoy the music!
They are expensive because most of them are handmade & are of very good materials. I bought them used, so could change them about without losing too much money. But beware, not all "designer" gear are crap-free. Having a group of audiophile friends helps, some even allow me hometrial. I think all true audiophiles would agree with me, that we need not understand the technicalities to enjoy our hobby, and this is what Audiogon is all about isn't it. There is nothing wrong with stock cords; they are good value for the average hifi enthusiast i must insist.
Here is something more technical. A well known audiocable maker uses "lossy" PVC, average loss PE & low loss teflon materials for their cable insulation to make products, some of them even have all three types in combinations and geometries. What is significant is that this maker is able to match each buyer's budget from good to excellent sonics consistently. It also said that PVC is underated becuse of its "lossiness" but good sonically. And that teflon is overated because it "glares" sonically and need to counteract with some other foamed materials and "airspaces" geometry. Then there is this secret wire-drawing method which imparts a special surface finish for good tranfer high audio frequencies; which also made all its earlier cables obsolete! There isn't any new technology here. You see cable makers like this one do have a good grasp of the sonic capability of their different cable models in order to assign the "correct" price. I actually bought and still using their interconnect and speaker cables. I did not wait for them to publish any white paper on this technology. They are probably just clever innovations which make the sonic difference.
I have a G-clef Gutwire pc on my cdp, AudioPower Industries PL313's for 845 tube monoblocs all fed through a Chang lightspeed 6400. They are not top notch pricewise, but for for my low power demand they are far better sounding than stock cords. Bought used, they are excellent value.