balanced is inherently flawed

Thanks for the input Sean, one always needs to know that there is sanity out there.

As you pointed out about the noise thing, I did use on purpose 'in theory'. In practice unless your circuit is way extra bad, 5db is easy. That means 10 db less noise in two stages is too. Often the noise rejection is more like 5.9-someodd- pretty close to 6 for most people.

Parts count in a fully differential circuit is not really all that bad, being slightly less then double the parts (although most are resistors which are not a big deal in the overall cost of an amp or preamp). Our preamps (and I make no bones about the fact that I walk what I talk) are fully differential and balanced and yet are less expensive then a lot of preamps that sound markedly inferior (if I do say so myself...).

3) I guess in the scheme of things, one would hope that what is strived for is the experience of recorded music sounding real. I would certainly hope then that the balanced source has its ducks in a row. If it is to be flawed for this discussion though, to be on the same ground the single-ended source must accept the same flaw(s). Given that the case, balanced sources would still tend to be better, if that flawed source is still considered to be balanced.

I've worked with this stuff for over 32 years now and I had often wondered why audiophiles did not take advantage of the benefits that balanced operation offerred. I am sorry for this, but if the best explanation is really no more then misinformation (or perhaps its own kind of damage control), -well, I don't buy it.

Having said that, I do believe there may be a different issue: some manufacturers got on the balanced bandwagon as they seemed to think is was a new trend. Most of those that I might put in that category do not seem to understand what the technology is about and have produced inferior products. Some of these are well-known. Held up to single-end products that are better thought out, I think such manufacturers have done the field of balanced operation in high-end audio a dis-service. My soapbox... -but since we were talking theory or that's how Herman made it sound, well, I reject on the basis of fact and experience just about everything he said in his opening post. What is disturbing is that it looks like people just ate it up. There's just too much of a mountain of evidence to the contrary; I just had to point it out.

Sean, good response, as was Ralphs. You have acknowledged many of the positive aspects of balanced circuitry noting the absolute most important point. Most notably, your point #3.

There are MAJOR differences between "quasi" balanced circuits and "true" balanced circuits. This factor MUST be recognized when evaluating. Installing XLR connectors on a component does not a balanced circuit make.

I provided the Jensen link (Bill Whitlock), in hopes that persons would familiarize themselves (if not already familiar) with the actual differences defining "balanced" vs. "true balanced" circuits. It clarifies with a high degree of accuracy and very little sales "slant".

Herman had mentioned the additional expense of manufacturing components with provisions for balanced interconnection and throughput. Well? This is partially accurate. Many quality manufacturers incorporate "true balanced" configuration as "standard equipment". I didn't "option" any of my components with "true balanced" configuration. It was already there. Maybe that could be considered an added benefit of a $5000 integrated? Along with chassis dampening, airborne and structure borne vibration control, high quality close tolerance components, short signal paths, etc, etc, etc. In short? Sound engineering practices.

Bottom line? If balanced configuration is utilized "true to form"? It has many benefits over single ended. Once again the key words being "true to form".

"True to form" is NOT a Ferrari with a Chevy motor in it.

Dang! Spot on!

I can't tell you how often I have people call me thinking they have a 'balanced' input on what is clearly a single-ended amp! Just 'cause you have that connector- don't let that fool ya.

I would think that it goes without saying that a 'balanced' amplifier or preamp was built that way from that ground up, but it isn't always that way.

Also, we probably ought to discern the difference between balanced differential and plain old balanced. Balanced differential is usually the simpler of the two, and generally quieter. Some of the ARC amps from the late 70s were balanced but they were not differential and they were also extremely complex. Complexity is definately not a prerequisite of balanced operation as differential circuits can be quite simple.

My McIntosh 2102 has balanced inputs but then it converts the signal to unbalanced which means there is just more adjustment before amplification.

Thus, using the unbalanced inputs in this case is better which is the opposite of my Audio Aero Capitole Makr II CD player's connections to my matching Audio Aero Capitole Amp which makes for perfect bi-amping in my home: unbalanced to the McIntosh and balanced to the Audio Aero....all from the same Cd player.

Atmasphere, welcome to the discussion

Ouch! I’m glad you decided not to flame me. It would have been reduced to tears. At first I was going to just walk away with my tail between my legs utterly defeated until I realized:

A: you misrepresented what I said about gain
B: other than the noise issue, you offer no reason why balanced is better
C: you cloud the issue with facts that have nothing to do with this issue, who cares what the phone company uses, we’re talking home stereos
D. You chastise me on the issue of balanced sources but don’t provide any. Remember, this is home stereo, not a recording studio
E: you completely ignore the heart of my position i.e. truly balanced and/or differential amplifiers introduce distortions due to the impossibility of creating perfectly balanced and/or differential circuits, especially with tubes.

Let me elaborate.

1. I never said that a balanced amp has more gain than single ended. I was attempting to refute the commonly held belief that balanced is better since the output of a balanced stage is typically louder when using the balanced vs. the single ended inputs, which most people incorrectly describe as an increase in gain instead of an increase in loudness. If I didn’t clearly articulate this then I apologize for the confusion. Just as most people confuse phase and polarity, I was attempting to minimize confusion for the vast majority of people who would describe this as an increase in gain. I know as well as you that it is not a matter of gain, but I’ll stand behind my contention that louder does not equate to better.

2. I never said that balanced doesn't have some design benefits like you mentioned, and I do understand the types of noise that you describe, but if my 103 dB speakers are dead quiet with single ended gear, how much quieter can they be with balanced? Granted, dead quiet without a signal applied is not a test of its ability to reject noise generated in the supply while under load, but it’s not that hard to build a well regulated supply. I’ll give you the fact that there is a theoretical advantage in regards to noise performance. I just don’t think there is any real advantage in practical use. If your system produces 12 dB less than nothing, who cares?

3. It is hard to disagree with your claim that “balanced lines can deliver the signal better” since “better” isn’t exactly a quantifiable parameter. Surely you can produce a more convincing argument than it is better because it is better. I’m also at a loss trying to understand your statement about balanced systems having “far less interference from the cables!” What type of interference are you talking about? Your information about transcontinental phone transmission may be accurate, but we’re discussing stereos here, not transmission of signals over thousands of miles of cables. Just because a 747 may be a good choice to get me from NY to LA doesn’t mean I would use one to go across the street. Please allow me to throw in my own “sheesh” at this point.

4. What you say about studios is true. As I stated in my original post, studios use balanced gear to good advantage, but once again, I must point out that we are talking about sound reproduction in the home, not studio recording or transcontinental phone transmissions. I don’t use any microphones or tape heads, and cutting an LP with balanced gear does not make the information on it balanced. A CD or LP or tape mastered in a balanced studio is still encoded single ended onto the CD/LP/tape.

Where are the balanced sources in a home system? A phono cartridge perhaps, but how many phono stages process it as a balanced from input to output? Even the mighty Aesthetix IO takes the balanced input and feeds it to a single ended stage before converting it to balanced. Besides, I’m not sure a phono cartridge is really balanced since used it in that fashion it is a floating source with no reference to ground. I could be wrong about that and I would enjoy hearing an explanation to the contrary.

I see nothing in your post that gives any reason why balanced gear will sound better than single ended other than the potential for better noise performance, and since my system doesn’t have any noise issues, I’ll stand behind the blather in my original post.

From your website I see you have devoted many years to your passion and I applaud you for that. After the Futterman fiasco you were either very brave or very foolish to continue down that path. I'm sure your stuff sounds swell. However, my contention is that you could have made a system just as swell or better with a single ended design and done so at a reduction in cost.

Now take a deep breath, gather your thoughts, and if you can offer something besides noise rejection, better is better, studios do it, and the phone company does it, then I will be happy to consider your response.

p.s. Sean, I’m not sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing with my contention that sound is single ended to begin with. You hear because your eardrum moves in and out in response to the increases and decreases in air pressure from some vibrating source. There is no equal but opposite pressure wave arriving at the same point in time like there are two equal but opposite electrical voltages in a balanced amp. Perhaps I’m not making myself clear or it may be totally unrelated to what we’re talking about, but I thought it illustrated my point that single ended was the natural order of things.