Cables 101, new student, first question

I’d ask one additional question to those posting advice to the OP, here. OP asked,

In general, will the system’s sound be defined by the weakest (cable) link in the chain, in which case all the more expensive cables are a waste of money?

My question -- at what point is a "system" too un-resolving for the cables to reveal a difference?

I’ve seen many threads where people have asked about their A/V receiver and the consistent response is "get something better." So, there must be some point (in quality though not necessarily in $$) that cables are a waste of money. In other words, there is some point when "the system" in the OP’s question is not good enough. What criteria define that point? That answer, if it can be stated, would probably help people direct their resources away from cables toward more important elements in their system. Then, they can move on to cables.

That said, it looks like williewonka's post may be an example of the refutation of my premise! 

When I first started reading Audiogon with some real attention, about two years ago, I was flummoxed by the differing opinions to questions that I took to be straightforward. Of course I knew that in the wider world there was plenty of debate about whether people could hear the difference between cables and amplifiers, but it interested me just how nuanced those debates could get out here. So I truly appreciate that there are differing opinions about the *application* of cable theory, but I also appreciate that there seems to be some consistency in this thread about my original question. 

In short, thank you again!

RE:

My question -- at what point is a "system" too un-resolving for the cables to reveal a difference?

I am yet to hear a system that does not outperform most cables i.e. from a resolution perspective. In which case upgrading cables will most always result in sonic benefits. You just need the right cables

So here is what I have found about cable construction...
- Quality of the metal used in the wire i.e. UP-OCC copper or silver wire - this invariably helps with the speed and dynamics of a cable, whereas as OFC or a lesser grade will not perform to the same level

- the gauge of the wires used - for speaker cables, too thin and certain frequencies are impacted or in the case of power cables using a wire that is too thin can restrict dynamics

- Quality of the insulation i.e. Teflon, Foamed Teflon or Cotton - this reduces distortions created within in the cable. Better insulation improves clarity. The issue is the Dielectric Constant (Dk) of the insulation. Air is 1.1, cotton is 1.3, foamed teflon is 1.45 and Teflon is 2.2. The higher the valus the more disortions will be introduced in the cable

- Cable Geometry - this reduces distortions between the signal and neutral conductors and improves imaging. Also, if their capacitance is too high the cables becomes a filter and colours the sound e.g. a cable might sound bright.

Now also consider, there are two channels operating in an audio system i.e. two signals that must be perfectly "coordinated" in order to reproduce the recorded signal.

Anything less than perfect reproduction of those signals will impact the image, i.e. the size of the image, the position of the instruments within the image, how focused the artist appears, will be affected.
Also, when the two signals are not "perfectly aligned" then different instruments and voices can be "layered" on top of one another, which impacts clarity and details because those sounds all appear to come from the very same location and the signals become harder to distinguish, impacting clarity

Hearing the difference between most commercial grade cables can be a challenge, mainly because a great many of them adopt the same/similar geometry, so they inherit the same issues.

But once you hear very good cables you will understand more about what exactly to listen for.

As for the other question: will using a poor downstream cable impact using a good upstream cable - the answer to that is YES!

If you have a great interconnect that transfer the signal flawlessly, but your speaker cables introduces distortions in that signal, then your system will only sound as good as the speaker cables allow

So what’s the difference between cables?

Interconnects and speaker cables transmit the signal, so perfect transmission of that signal is the goal.

Whereas power cables conveys the current required by the attached component. Good power cables allow components to better handle the demand the component places on the power supply, in order to handle transient spikes in the signal it is processing, which improves dynamic performance, imaging and clarity. Also, if there is any noise in the cable then this can impact the neutral side of the component, which should be at ZERO volts. Noise on the neutral will impact the way the signal is processed/amplified and the overall sound is impacted.

In both cases, wire metallurgy, insulation, geometry present in really good cables, plays a key role in conveying the signal or power to the attached component without any noise.

Please note - this post is very much a summary of what is a very much more complicated topic

Hope that helps - Steve

I was trying to ask, simply, whether cables in a system are victim to the weakest link in the cable chain. I’m interested in how systems work, abstractly, and I’m also interested in practical applications. That is, I’m interested in "the big picture"

The big picture, as it says on my system page, is that everything matters. The "weakest link" concept applies only to the extent it might guide you towards doing things that get the most improvement for your time and money. But every single little thing you can think of anywhere you can think of it, each one is only about as important as any other.

Take AC wire, for example. There’s a treatment Total Contact that when applied to the outside of a wire greatly improves sound quality. You might think it will work best inside a component, or inside the room. But I have crawled under the house and put this stuff on wires going all the way back to the breaker panel. It comes in a 1.5ml syringe. I know how much went where. The first 5 feet from the panel makes just the same improvement as the last 5 feet in the room.

The beauty of this is when you find something like this that is very cost-effective then instead of having to buy ever more and more expensive components you can greatly improve what you already have and get there for a lot less. This is embraced as great news by people like me and Mahgister; dismissed by people who seem to have inexhaustible supplies of fiat currency for buying ever more expensive upgrades; and derided by people who either cannot hear or cannot believe their own ears. There’s a lot of different personalities out there trying to be audiophiles.

When I first started reading Audiogon with some real attention, about two years ago, I was flummoxed by the differing opinions to questions that I took to be straightforward.

There are also a lot of audiophiles who simply have not yet developed the requisite skills needed to form a sound opinion. This is almost always the case early on. I can still recall back in 1990 my inability to hear any difference between CD players and DACs. Took me a good few months running around hearing lots of different things until suddenly one day Eureka! Then in no time flat there were all kinds of increasingly obvious differences between .... everything.

At least that’s the way it seems now in hindsight. Back then though it wasn’t sudden at all. It was months and months of driving around straining in vain- and not getting much encouragement. Because when the salesman has a vested interest you can’t count his encouragement, and the other fellow in the store can’t hear any difference either (this happened more than once!) and even the so-called audiophiles at the so-called audiophile club aren’t much better, its long odds.

That’s just the listening angle. There’s also technology, electronics, physics, acoustics, and psycho-acoustics to contend with. So don’t be too surprised people have greatly differing opinions. This ain’t easy. Not easy at all. There’s a saying, nothing worth doing ever is.

@williewonka  Thanks for your organized, clear, detailed, and readable answer.