There amps are 2-dimensional. At shows there sources are often used with Naim amps. So you get a 2-dimensional image. But it is possible that there sources can give a 3-dimensional image. It is very easy to test. use amps and speakers who can give a deep and wide stage connect the source and you know it. We are not talking about something what is dificult to get. You only need to use amps, sources and speakers which can give depth and wide. It is that simple!
I think it's really combo dependant cause, for my experience, i listened to a pair of mezzo utopia with Musical fidelity pre and power amp (can't remember the ref but top of the line anyway) with no result at all! The room was also very difficult to manage and we had to move the speakers several times inside the room to get a correct stereo image. Anyway the amps were pretty "MP3" kind of sound, not musical at all.
And you can't drive a B&W 802 with Naim! Not enought current, just watts for easy speakers. The 802 were probably the baddest speaker ever for small electronics with no juice. And even when you find big power amps, the sound still appear narrow. One of my friend change is 802 for a pair of Usher audio BE-718. Even his child told hime that with the Ushers, it seemed that the players were in the room playing. The guy use McIntosh SS power amp and McIntosh tube pre and CD player. It seems the new 800 serie is now driveable...
I'm quite surprise with your Onkyo reference? Depth is one thing but music is another matter! Onkyo is so colorfull and dull that even with more depth, i'm still choosing a Naim! (colored as well but fun) Using an Audissey with Naim rather than Onkyo should give a better result. Using that kind of room correcting device during a show will certainly give a major asset to the system.
During the same audition with the MF and the Utopia, we used a Behringer room correcting device. It improved the overall sound but lost on the way all the music. It was synthetic like plastic!
It's important not to forget that we're listening to music, not just frequencies and spatial positionning. Like i said, i'd rather choose a engaging sound, livelike and musical more than a perfect dimensional system with no life. Anyway i appreciate your passion and your dedication to your customer Bo1972.
@ Mrtennis, Hi, I called Joe at Audio Advisor, He confirmed your findings!, The tubes in the s7 and higher up the food chain are not hard wired, 1960s tubes would be awsome in that player!, However, He did say the cheaper cd players and a couple of the cheap pre-amps have hard wired tubes!, mmmmm.
Yess it is. A few clients came to me. They said: this is the end of a cd player. Why for god sake you would buy a cd player? It is Always nice to hear new things of your beloved recordings. The 384 kHz dac makes the stage wider and deeper. The control and sound realism is stunning. And after 2 weeks it is stil working!!!
The old 802 was in dynamics with Naim quite good to be unnest. But the stage was too flat. And the Nu-Vista was superior in individual focus and also in resolution compared to the Naim. 802N is these days a far outdated speaker in every way. I modified the way of measuring a lot with Audyssey pro. Not only I measure at total different places and hights. WE also modified the stand for the microphone. This also gives a superior level how it can be measured normally. With the 5509 and Audyssey Pro I blew away many expensive pre amps. People don't understand it, but hear the stunning results. And this is what matters. I can think 3-4 steps further than any other people in this business. I have proven this many times since I do this work at many situations. I used the Behringer in the past as well. We sold it. It is far inferior to the level what I can achieve with Audyssey pro. I blew away my old Pass Labs XP-20 in dynamics, speed, drive, depth, wide, resolution and individual focus of instruments and voices. I hope I will get the option to blow away every set at a show in the US. It is on my list!!
I also have a question about the Onkyo receiver you mentioned. When you talk about 3D I always thought you were talking about 2 channel. The Onkyo is a HT receiver. Are you using all the channels or just the front 2? (For music, not movies)
3D has nothing to do with 2 or more channels. Wenn I play 2 or 5 channels I have a lot of depth. And also with 2 and 5.1 I play beside my speakers and far behind. The stunning thing is that I have a 3D image with 2 and with 5 channels. During the show this year I used both 2 channel and 5.1 channel. I had a person with a Pass Labs 2.5 pre amp. He was also amazed that I could blow his pre amp away that easy. People with very expensive highend really f... hate it. But I love it!! Wenn I play stereo I never use more than 2 frontspeakers. Stereo is still the main thing for me. I only use 5.1 for bluray movies and music. Wenn you love music stereo is the most important. And no I would not play this on more speakers than my front speakers ( and my subwoofer)
What I said before I Always test all amp if they are 2 or 3 dimensional. I never thought that Onkyo could give a deep and wide stage. Because I had done many tests with brands like Marantz, NAD, Denon, Cambridge etc and they were all 2-dimensional. It was a little luck to find out that Onkyo can give a deep and wide stage as well. Wenn I compare Onkyo with stuff from clients which are 2 dimensional. They become sometimes quite frustrated because they hear the limitations of there stuff which is more expensive. Everything I use and sell are based on getting the best 3D touchabel image and the best dynamics, speed, resolutionn and most important natural involving sound. Focus is on creating the best sound possible. Wenn people come to mu house they often use the same words; that they never heard a 3-dimensional image this stunning. That it is new for them. That is why I want give demo's outside of europe as well.
Cause of Audyssey Pro I also can create it in a worse acoustic. This year I sold 2 audio sets in a farm with the worst acoustic ever. But cause of using Audyssey with my way of measurement I got also stunning results. Superior imaging and also no harsh sound at all. Without it it would be a big mess!!
I am busy now with a new website. The comming time I will start making professional video's about many audio stuff. I will make them in dutch and in english as well. So then you can see a face and hear a voice. Second step is also demo's. I also collected many review's of my cliebts the last time. So you will get an idea hoe they think about my way of working.
@Bo1972 : i'm looking forward to see those videos. It's always interesting to see other approach, mostly when it's a cheaper way of approaching audio High-end! You should offer a kind of training to spread your knowledge to more people! May be i should buy a plane ticket to you...easier from France!
Wenn a client emails his list I often can see which properties his set has. At show I do the same. before listening I describe how the image and sound will be wenn i play one of my cd's. Wenn you think in properties it is a lot easier to understand audio. Wenn I go to a client I Always first ask them to play 4-5 numbers they know well. Wenn it is possible I listen with him behind the hotspot. I get an idea about the image, sound and the way it performs in his acoustic. Then I use a few numbers to improve the individual focus and also the balance of the low freq. in the room. This costs me about 20 min. Then I ask him to play they ame music he strarted with. You can seet he smile on there faces wenn they are listening. Then I say: and this is for free!!
optimization is the heart of High-end audio! In that matter, cables are a major component of the system. I listened to a system last week. The guy use a REGA Apollon and BRIO R amp on a pair of Usher Audio MINI-ONE. He wires the whole thing with a VDH interconnect, and self-made PCs. For the trial, we used my Analysis plus big silver. After the first song, i notice a problem : the dynamic flattened the sound stage and a lack of high and low frequencies narrowed the overall presentation. I asked the guy to switch the VDH for a pair of Analysis plus's Copper oval in. After the change, the depth was back with a greater sense of 3D, highs and bass were also more present with more subtilities. The gap was huge between the 2 cables. And the Analysis is not expensive so not hype at all. The Analysis plus's solo crystal oval is probably one of the most valuable wire on the market for his performance/price ratio. If the system is neutral, the Solo will make it sing with naturalness and a great sense of pace. If the system is unbalanced, it will sound even more unbalanced!
What I said earlier VDH does not make that great cables. He is a funny person, but there are enough brands which outperform his cables with ease. And yess cables have also a big influence on the stage. I sold Nordost for over 9 years. And I did hundreds of teste with them. Wenn I played 100% Valhalla my stage also become less wide and deep. Wenn I had discussions about this with Nordost they Always became quite irritated. It is as it is, it is that simple!!
During the Denver audio fest of 2010, I auditionned Nordost new power filtration system. They were demonstrate how it worked on a system. I'd preferred the system without their device!!! It was more natural without... I don't have many experiences with nordost but this one was quite funny! And the power system was insanely expensive by the way!!! Hype for sure...
They believed in there synergy bullshit story. 100% Valhalla Always gave different limitations. But also with other cables in there line. The stage becomes smaller wenn you use full Nordost cables. Wenn I changed for examples interconnects to Kimber the stage became bigger. And the instruments and voices were so much better focused. Then I used blind test to see what people prefer. They Always choose for the combi of Nordost and Kimber. I am a person who Always looks further than other people. Many people stick to the nonsense they say. Wenn I hear limitations I will directly look for a better solution. Nordost gives a lot of resolution. But instruments and voices need to be focussed sharp were they are ar put on the recording. It does not give the palpable image as in real. Instruments and voices are a lot more direct to point out. That is why I Always did use Nordost just for a part in a system. Because wenn you use it wise it gives you important parts in your set what is very important. Nordost does not have all properties/talents what can be given by cables. That is why I call it incomplete.
I was this year also at a show were they did demonstrate this. It was even more funny. You could hear the difference ( I could hear it quite easy) But there were people who did not hear it. The person of Nordost became irritated that he didn't hear it. So he made a big misstake.
The nice thing about cables is that there are so many flavours. Wenn you understand the properties/talents you can adapt every system to a higher level with ease. Average or sometimes poor cables will limit amps, sources, speakers etc. in the quality they are able to give. There are many people who are not even able to get more than 30-60% out of the amps, speakers, sources etc what they own.
@ Iblieve, You want an amp capable of 3 dimensional musical presentation for not too much money??? Try upgraded McCormack DNA-1 & .05 Deluxe Ediion amps. After Steve's upgrades these amps do it well!
He was irritated because the person said to him: I do not hear the difference. It is how he hears it. So he has to accept it. The man of Nordost said to him; that it was his limitation. How stuppid you can be to use those words. The difference was noticable but not that big. So he did not give a good demo. He played with Odin, Niodeo and Raidho speakers. He played one of my cd's; Bruce Springsteen Brothers under the bridge. His voice was a little to big in proportion. The instruments were not projected in a lot depth. And I missed resolution at the words endings of his voice. Wenn I play it at home you can hear so much easier the words endings. Ending at a ssss, ttt or th. You could hear it, but it was not that clear. So I understood that the person did not hear it. The demo was not good enough. Many parts were you Judge a system at were not convincing enough. It was there fault and not the person his fault that he could not hear it.
It's one of the most common leitmotiv in High-end business : if you can't ear it, you're the problem! It's so stupid to say that! Just say to the guy that he's lucky cause he's gonna save a lot of money in the process! On my system, some friends are hypnotized by the sound, some are not able to ear the improvement and many of them tell me i'm crazy to spend so much money on that! It doesn't mean they're stupid... Hifi is a mind game...
The biggest problem is that most audio stuff is not good enough. So I understand that people are not convinced. In over 15 years of time I know that over 95% of all audio is not that special or good. But people still buy it. Wenn I visit some, you often hear a low level for too much money. Wenn you use the right stuff at the right way you can convince every person. Also women. That is why I Always focus on owmen. Women have a better hearing than men.But the interest of men in audio is bigger. So you need to triger them. That is why I Always have a lot of different music with me. So they can play the music they know and like. Quality sells itself. So use the best so it will make it more easy to understand and convince. You have to keep it this simple!
I don't think women have better ears. I think they are more connected with their emotions. For example, my wife aren't interested in Hifi but on my new system (based on Usher audio speakers and Music culture electronics), she cried on a song she already knew and listened on my previous system. The emotion was so palpable that she felt the sadness of the song. Women didn't think like men over hifi system. Men are "brainiac" and more connected on details, bandwidth, sound staging... Emotion comes after and not on every guys... Another story : One guy comes over to my place with his electronics (melody tube amps). He wanted to test Usher speakers. First he came alone. On a second occasion, he came with his wife to be sure of the improvement. His wife laughed at him after the first musical notes cause my system was WAY better than his...She mentioned the emotion and overall balance sound. He bought Usher audio MINI-2 after that...
So you see women can have a positive impulse on the stuff we buy. In the past I had a Nordost demo of the SPM loudspeakercable. First he didn't hear the difference with his other Nordost cable. The difference was big to be honnest. What I did was learning him were he should focus at during listening to his favorite music. I used one of his favorite tracks. We played the song 4-5 times. And I told him were to focus at. After 20 minutes and some more songs it became clear for him what the difference was. But he said; my girlfriend plays half. So I said to him; you can lend it for some days. After 3 days he called back. He said; I buy it, we love it. What I did was what you learned me a few days ago. I try to keep audio as simple as possible for everybody. That includes women as well!
my 2cents: just went from 60/40 copper/silver to OCC (pure copper) and there was a difference. Also, went from bi-wired to shotgun with jumpers, and there was a difference. Changed to Crystal cable inter-connects, and there was a difference!
So for sure you can customize the sound of your system with cables. If you have an issue with your sound - just ask, we all have answers.
Judging by the number of posts on this thread - we all have answers :-)
regarding the original thread, hype may be a marketing ploy by manufacturers, or the result of owners' cognitive dissonance, but "value", is subjective.
I tested many canbles in 15 years of time. In my opinion there are a lot cables which are average or even poor. So yes you can say that most cables are more hype than there value worth. But about audio in general the same thing.
The % real good stuff in audio is extreme small. In over 15 years I do this work and visited many shows, dustributers, shops clients and even manufacturers I am still stuned about how much shit there is on the market. I first could not sell it to my customeers. But second it is often difficult to understand why people spend so much money for a low level in quality. It is a very important reason why I am still in this business. I love this world and I love high quality audio!
The accuracy of 3D imaging quality of any system is afforded by the combined result of all components retaining a high degree of channel separation throughout the signal path. Any induced 3D imaging created via phase distortion, or cross channel leaking, is inaccurate, yet many like this sound quality.
And, remember, the room is 50% of what you hear 3D wise.
3 D staging is Always about accuracy of all the parts including acoutics togheter. But the differences in cables are big. They project the image differently wenn played by the same amp, source and even in the same room. So the question is; What is the right way?
i think high priced cables are too expensives but the problem is that brands value the result, not the real cost of their design. In Hifi, you have really nice designed circuitry in cheap electronics. For example, an electronic engineer i know is still really impressed by REGA circuitry. When he uses his measurement instruments on it, it's near perfect! Anyway, REGA is a fair brand but not really excellent. Sometimes some brand value the innovation like Devialet, not the result (Devialet is good but not a fair deal at all!!!).
My point is that you can create a good design without higher the price but sometimes, when you get a result no one else can equal, you can be tempted to rise the prices for it! High End business is definitely not a fair business and it's important to be well guided through this maze...
Audio is not a fair business at all. In 15 years of time I visited many people with expensive sets. Many of them still play at an average or even low level. Why? Because often they are screwed by some people in this business. This is the thing I hate most. People thrust the people they buy things from. Many are only focussed on making money. Many of these people do not have a set at home. Often they do not have a lot of music as well. I met many of them. These people are those who dislike me the most. Because I held the mirror often for there eyes. That is who I am. Audio need to be more transparent and honnest. The positive thing I see in this business is that you can get a better quality for a lower price compared to the past. But the biggest problem is the high % of average or worse quality in audio in general. I love cables which are exeptional good compared to there competitors. Because they can bring new properties/ qualitities to the sets we own. Without you cannot reach the level of the absolute sound. For the non belivers I often use blind auditions. This is the only way to understand what they can give you more than when you would not use them. Audio need to be kept as simple and clear as possible. And this for every single person. It should be that simple!
@bo1972 : We can't be more agree on that! There is a lot of scammers in Hifi business... And a lot of stupid customers too! People are more trustfull on marketing products than their own ears! Snob people want the better known and expensive system to show their money! There is a lot of futur business for those scammers...
'Snob people want the better known and expensive system to show their money!'...so by your logic, using another commodity as an example, porsche owners only buy the porsche because they want to show off..?..not because it's a better car than, say, a Kia.. audio systems aren't jewelry. nobody comes over to SEE my system..they come to listen, and only if i invite them.they aren't interested in the price.
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