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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
rchau
43 posts
 
I want to offer a different perspective.

I gather from your original post that you've had the Klipsch for a long time and they took a turn for the worse about a year ago.

Your original assessment of a bad capacitor is a possibility but I would encourage you to take that idea and take it one step back.

All components will change over time; capacitors, resistors, magnets, etc. If the speakers are really vintage, they likely have carbon comp. resistors. Carbon comps are really old technology but have a nice sound that is very popular in Japan and Eurpoe and among many DIY and guitar amp guys. They also have the unfortunate effect of changing their values over time (usually increasing in value).

Capacitors also age and change in value and depending on the type, can have catastrophic failures. One certainly needs to be careful with old electrolytics.

The net point is that the values of many of the components could have drifted resulting in the wrong crossover points. It is prudent to measure the values of all the components and check against the nominal values before making any changes. It could be that all of the resistors have changed their values or one of them has gone south. Easy to check with a meter before spending money.

You have already noticed how much changing a cap can change the sound. Modern caps have different tonal qualities than vintage one and they may just not be to your liking. You could try to find vintage caps as replacements.

Secondly, alnico magnets can lose their strength over time. This is especially true if they have been pushed hard due to heat. This is well known among Altec/JBL users since many of those drivers were used in the pro arena where they get pushed hard. At least for Altec drivers, outfits like Great Plains Audio offer a re-magnetization service. This is another possibility. Other speaker problems could be worn diaphragms on the compression drivers, damaged or corroded voice coils, etc.

I would also check the cabinet to see of everything is still solid and that there are no loose joints, holes, etc.

It sounds daunting but a little detective work can go a long way. Just like a car, when they get old sometimes they need to be rebuilt.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Rchau thanks for the help I will answer what I can.

Almost 2 years ago now they went bad. In the sense of bad I mean the noise level went up. The sound on SS gear became harsh.

Resistors? I do not think they have any?

The midrange from that Alnico magnet is what makes me keep them. Still amazing!

Capacitors? When I had the Sonicaps in I could hear that the speakers were now crossing over at the right spots. The bass was much improved and the highs were I think better than ever! But the down side was the "life" and realness in the midrange was gone as well. They didn't sound defective with Sonicaps just not majical.

I have looked for vintage Aerovox to see if they are still made. That is where the Mundorf Silver in Oil comes in as a close replacement to originals. The originals were film in oil.

Another factor is break in maybe I just did not give the Sonicaps enough time. I am having them installed in the new crossover. I am getting the quote with new inductors. I want to see if inductors cleam up the bass and if so new Mundorfs are coming. I feel (hope) that Mundorf Silver in Oil and top notch inductors (Alpha Core or Mundorf) will max out these speakers. I am from the camp who loves them when they are right.

I have had one of the bottoms off to see the woofer and the other was too tight to take off. Looked mint in there.

I do not know if you have heard of Arthur Salvatore but he ranks the Khorns as the best vintage speaker ever. He says just once he would love to hear a all out version. I myself feel the same.

I could hear a increase in noise in the speakers. I assumed it was the cartridge only to find out it was not. Maybe someone else could pipe in do bad caps have a high noise floor?

Yes modern caps have a different tonal quality or lack of is a better way to describe them. (dead and unemotional) I do hope the Mundorf's are as good as original that is all.
face
516 posts
 
IMO, Sonic Caps sound like Sonic Crap for the first 50 hours or so. After 100 hours they start to open up. I'd say they're 90% broken in after 200 hours. You should consider giving them another chance before moving on.

Regardless if you move on or not, I'd love to hear your impressions.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Face I will be doing something and my gut says just get the Mundorf's. I was surprised to (and somewhat not) hear that old caps did do something special. I think the oil in the Klipsch does something and caps are wayyyy more important than I thought. Maybe (I feel) why some people really like the Mundorf (oil caps) is they have brought back the best quality of the past. (that oh so real mid range)
rchau
43 posts
 
Volleyguy

I did some more poking.

It looks like the crossover for the La Scalas do not have any resistors but a large number of oil caps.

It also appears that 5 different Klipsch crossovers have been used ranging from the original A crossover to the newer AL-3 crossover. There is also a popular aftermarket crossover, the ALK. People seem to think the AL-3 and the ALK are the best.

It might be worth calling Klipsch and see what they say.

My reservation about just putting in the Mundorfs is that you really have no way of telling what the end result will be. I have a dealer friend who sold a Mastersound amp and the customer wanted the caps upgraded. We ended up putting in the Mundorfs because they were the only caps with the right ratings and the right size. The sound changed dramatically. I certainly did not like the new sound. I found the sound too tilted towards the top end. Of course, the changes are relative and subjective and everyone will have a different opinion. And that's the problem.

Also, just because a cap is an oil cap doesn't mean they all sound the same or have a certain magic. In one preamp I built, I swapped out several kinds of oil caps and they ranged from bright to utter warm and slowness.

BTW-before you do anything go measure the resistance across each driver, especially the tweeters. Make sure the values are nominal or at least close to spec.
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