So after reading about 1000 paragraphs on how good the Mint LP Tractor is - I purchased one and had a marathon session yesterday with my new SL-1210 M5G, AT440MLa and Zupreme headshell...
After all was said and done - the alignment itself took 90 hard minutes - I am finding the cartridge sitting about 5-7 degrees "right" of center. The actual cantilever and stylus are about as dead on as I wanna go with it for now.
Now a comment and a question....
Question: Is this non-parallel result in the headshell normal? It's making me think I may have a bent cantilever or something.
Comment: I have run 10-12 sides thru the rig so far and I must say - I have not yet heard the "revelation" that others have described when comparing their alignments to other protractors or even the white Technics alignment gauge. The rig sounds good...but...what I am missing here.
I must temper the above by saying I have changed phono stages frequently in the last month as well...I was getting nicely familiar with a Bellari VP-130 and then moved that for a Cambridge which lasted less than a week and I now have a Moon LP3 with maybe 25 hours on it...Even my AT440MLa might have 40-50 hours on it as well....
I am thinking that a whole bunch of stuff might need to "burn" in before the system starts to really reveal itself.
But I am very concerned with the stylus/cantilever on the cart...even with all the moves the Mint required...I expected the cartridge to sit straight in the headshell...perhaps expecting too much?
Thanks again for the all the feedback. I heard back from Yip - maker of the Mint LP Tractor and he did say that some degree of "twist" in the headshell "can" occur to obtain maximum alignment. He did not indicate in any way that it was "normal" however.
He also wants to see a phono of my setup to see how much "toe-out" is involved.
As far as the sound goes...after a number of sides that I am really familiar with - I am now starting to get a sense of a better blacker background etc.
I will continue to monitor this for the rest of the week but I agree with the "finicky" aspect of this and may attempt another alignment session on the weekend.
Apparently the MINT tractor does use a different geometry then the one the designer(s) of your tonearm had in mind. If it works fine with you and does produce the sound you were longing for, I wouldn't care too much about the optical issue.... If it doesn't you may cross-check with other "universal" templates like a Dennesen or a Feickert. Maybe they will produce results more to your liking.
Vocalpoint! I experienced exactly the same problem with my PC-1 using Mint Protractor and was as surprised as You. But the sound was definitely improved afterwards, micro details, soundstage, blacker background ....just about everything I can think of. But it took me 2-3 days of finicky.
VP, if you were able to get the stylus tip to hit the arc at the inner and outer points, (setting overhang) then the tip should also hit the center of the null points. Make sure the protractor doesn't move from this point on. Now all you need to do is twist the cart to get the cantilever perfectly aligned between the crosshairs. While I have not personally used a MintLp protractor, I have used arc protractors to set up a cart. As others have stated, don't worry about the headshell or cart body, it's all about the cantilever and stylus.
Efective length= distance from pivot point to STYLUS TIP. Where the headshell ends up means diddly.
To get your Mint alignment there is a lot of back-and-forth. Adjust you effective length inner and outer, then do your null point adjustment. Then check VTF. Repeat, then repeat. Keep repeating until ALL the points are correct and your VTF is correct. Your cart being perfectly straight in your headshell is NOT one of the perimeters to worry about to get your alignment correct. This is also why I believe you are not happy with your results. Use the MINT Luke...Use the Mint.
This is an erroneous assumption, IMO. I'm certain if you email Yip he will verify that he does not scribe the mirror's hash lines according to the headshell."
Tvad,
Thanks again for all the updates. I do appreciate your time. Regarding the Mint "process"...it's effective length first (ensuring the headshell "front" is exactly parallel to the cartridge head - Yip's words) and then null points...Inner first and then outer.
It's odd that you seem to think it's normal to have a slight rotation of the body when Yips actual instructions consistently remind the use that the headshell front and the cart head should remain in parallel thruout the entire procedure.
You would think he would make some mention of the fact that if it occurs "in some cases - your cartridge head may not line up with the headshell front" and say that it's okay...but he does not.
I did drop Yip a line with all my comments and questions. It will probably end up being driver error by me...or maybe I did actually bend this thing enough for it to be noticeable.
Dear vocalpoint, The answers to all the questions in your latest and recent previous posts are all to be found in my and Tvad's posts that went before. Please read them and think about it. The protractor does not give a rat's behind about your headshell. The position of the cartridge body will depend upon where the protractor tells you to put it. If you lined up your cantilever true to the protractor, you are done. If then there is a lack of alignment between the cartridge body and the long axis of the headshell, this has to be because the headshell offset angle, i.e., its geometry, is different from the geometry chosen by Yip for your tonearm. This more or less sums up what I have been trying to get across, in less detail. Peace. Out.
To the headshell - of course. If everything is 100% true on the cart - especially cantilever to body - I should not have to tilt the cart on the shell. When the cantilever is exactly set between the nullpoints - the straight front of the cart body should be parallel to the straight front on the headshell.
And that exactly how it is for me - right up until I have to set the cantilever to the null points. The cart body is 100% straight when I set the initial "effective length". Everything looks straight - until that cantilever lineup phase...then the cart must be tilted "toe-out" to the right.
Another possibility is the Zupreme headshell itself. Not sure what Yip calls standard but I assume when he designs his tractors...he is using the standard Technics headshell to scribe those lines into the glass...not some third party shell. Perhaps the length, width or something else is playing into it?
I have been meaning to get a backup stylus anyway - so I will probably just get another 440 stylus from LP Gear. Seems to be the cheapest route and the only way to have a guaranteed new 100% parallel start point.
Cheers!
VP
Anyone comment on the "screw/nut" question...round nut or hexagon shape for best adjustment?
"Is your cart set up correctly according to the MintLP...the stylus hits both null points and the cantilever is parallel and centered between the MintLP's mirrored hash lines? If any of these are off, then the cart is not yet dialed in."
Tvad,
Well...the stylus tip is hitting the arc at the outermost possible point (off the platter) and the inner most point. Within this parameter - I am "eyeing" in the line with regards to the headshell...
However - the screws were giving me fits and once I got around to lining up the cantilever with the null points...I had to loosen the right screw and move the cart down to the right enough to get the cantilever to line up with the null points (when aligned via the parallax effect - I could clearly see two clear spaces on either side of the cantilever indicating a very good lineup.)
So that tells me one of three things...my "line" cart-to-headshell was off to begin with and just got more "off" as I proceeded...or the Mint LP math by design causes the cart body to be off parallel...or the cantilever is bent ever so slightly.
I am thinking if the cantilever position is perfect and is 100% parallel to the body - then the body should line up perfectly. Yes? No?
Tvad, but if cantilever is straight and cartridge is parallel with the long axis of the headshell, then the cantilever is also parallel with the long axis of the headshell. "QED", as we used to have to say in geometry class. So, since your cartridge ended up slightly twisted wrt the headshell, we can conclude that Yip chose a geometry different from the one chosen by the maker of your tonearm. This is not to say Yip is "wrong" to do this. I am sure he knows more about this stuff than I do and has his reasons. The Technics geometry is said to be not so great (based only on internet scuttlebutt), so, if true, that is one good reason right there.
As far as I can see with my eye - the cantilever is straight - however - without a precise measurement - and I must admit - my eyes were ready to pop out - how can I be absolutely sure? I will assume a precision product like the AT440MLa does in fact ship with a straight cantilever.
But - with the Zupreme and the lame screw set included with the AT...nothing like those tiny round nuts to drive me crazy - I probably didn't have the cart perfectly parallel to begin with and as the movement back and forth continues with the Mint - it ends up being "off".
If it's normal - I can live with it for now. The AT is fine piece but I am also considering an upgrade to the 2M Bronze shortly...with it's threaded body...I believe it will be much easier to get a tighter grip on the headshell and ultimately finer more precise movements against the Mint.
For you folks using the nuts/screws method...is it better to use the round nut or a hex that will "grab" against the cart body and provide a tighter "tighten".
For the record - my Mint - is specifically designed for this table. This was my first use of it and I am sure subsequent runs should be more precise.
I love the MintLP tractor, and have bought one for every tonearm I have owned, and they do make a difference. That said, the difference is really based on how close you came to getting the geometry correct on your initial set up.
With my current rig, I found that the I had VERY little adjustment to do at all when I got the MintLP. When I set the cartridge down on the mirror the first time, it was about dead on from setting it up with the VPI jig that came with the turntable.
By the way, I agree with Tvad's very first post: If the cantilever is indeed bent a bit then that accounts for the "problem" you note, which is not per se a problem in fact.
The post supports my recollection that Stevenson and Technics are different. If they ARE different, that may account for the fact that you need to twist your cartridge a bit in the headshell in order to align it with the protractor. You might ask Yip what geometry he uses for Technics tts. I'd be interested to know the outcome. I would repeat however that I doubt this accounts for the fact that you are underwhelmed with your results.
I presume that you had your protractor specifically built for your turntable/tonearm. With that as a given, you ask, "Question: Is this non-parallel result in the headshell normal? It's making me think I may have a bent cantilever or something." If your cantilever is bent by the 5 to 7 degrees that the cartridge is off line, you should be able to see that yourself, just by looking at the cantilever. If the cantilever looks perfectly aligned with the cartridge body, then the answer to your question must be "no". Otherwise, it is not necessarily a problem that your cartridge body is slightly misaligned with the long axis of your headshell. (I assume this is what you meant.) However, I am surprised, as you are, by your finding, given the custom built protractor. It may be due to the fact I may have recently read elsewhere that Yip prefers the Stevenson geometry (of the various algorithms, Stevenson is closest to Technics geometry but not identical), so the discrepancy between Stevenson and Technics probably accounts for the slight twist of your cartridge body. In the end, your cartridge is probably properly aligned, and you are not blown away by the result. Possibly your system lacks whatever it takes to blow you away. Compared to before you did the Mint LP alignment, is the sound at least better than it was? If not, maybe you do need to re-evaluate your equipment. Alignment is not the panacea that some would have us believe it is. And thanks for your post; you may have saved me some money.
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