Dedicated power lines-getting started

subaruguru wrote:

The advantage of this Belden is that it's shielded and all-Teflon dielectric.

The shielding I see as a disadvantage, the Teflon is good. There is no scientific reason to shield either power cords or speaker cables unless you are wanting to reduce dynamics. This is why I recommend plastic conduit and plastic junction boxes.

ChrisVH - a question. Do you have patents on the cable designs that you are referring to?

Seems to me the right to litigate intellectual property is based on having a patent first. Otherwise, it is just a trade secret, which have the nasty habit of getting out unless they are invisible or potted in epoxy etc...

Chris,
Here ya go again. I wrote to you personally to end this arguing, and instead you question timelines.
I write to you as an ally, and you bite my ass. Sigh....
Your request of me to not reference your designs in my ads is puzzling. Unless I'm mistaken I don't believe I mention your name directly or by specific association; I'll check again to make sure. But methinks you paint the herring red here....

I installed dedicated lines with 83802 in late 2000, which I referred to as two years ago last fall when I decided to offer the Kits. It's now been 2 1/2 years. The actual PCs were built afterward, as I didn't figure out where to get IECs until much later. Hence the post in 01. What's your point? Or are you just assailing muy integrity?

Eagle, I have no idea what Belden says about 110v use. We all are using 8380x for that, and its a dandy cable. The issue probably relates to whether the outside soft Teflon jacket is abrasion-resistant enough to use without conduit.
In most cases it is, but I suspect that most inspectors would want to see it protected further. But i have not heard of ANY problems thus far. I agree that the use of a third conductor (83803) is preferable to 83802's shield-as-ground vis-a-vis safety issues. Unfortunately the 83803 costs a full 50% more. The preferable solution is indeed to counterspiral a cheap 10THHN 12AWG ground outside the matrix, and then slide it through a conduit of some type, per Audioengineer, et al, above.

Re intellectual property: Chris' choice of 83802 as a two-pole power delivery cable is certainly insufficiently different from the intended normal use of the stuff to constitute propriety. The only difference is perhaps 24v vs 115v, if one wanted to stretch it.
I know that there are SEVERAL manufacturers of $$$ PC that use Belden's 8380x, and would certainly chuckle if presented with a cease 'n desist because someone thought of it too and asked for exclusive rights. And what would Belden have to say about it?
I can understand that someone wouldn't want to have their actual copy, diagrams, drawings. etc., electronically copied for commercial use without permission.

My only actions are to assemble the parts required to make a fine PC from a pre-existing cable along with my choice of connectors and outer jacket. It's interesting that Audioengineer posts above "his" idea for a counterwound external safety ground. By extension this is also a borrowed use of Chris' "design"? C'mon!

Chris is going to unveil a very similar cable that is completely his ownership. In this case he can rightfully control marketing, licensing, etc.

But asking for permission to use Belden 8380x in a 115v application is like me asking others to request my permission to use the slightly different-sized Yokohamas that I discovered improve the handling of Outbacks. Sure I
"discovered" the excellence of this application, but I don't doubt that others have also "designed" such an application in parallel. And why should anyone care?

Audioengineer:
I'm curious about your statement. Many of us use a floated ground in PCs to drain unwanted junk. Lower noisefloor usually results, certainly with no loss of dynamics.
I'd be grateful for more elucidation. I've enjoyed your previous technical posts. Thanks.

Chris,
As you and I have noted, DIY PC building is a satisfying, cost-effective way of enjoying our hobby inexpensively.
NOT ONE PERSON who has contacted me re power applications has referred to my Kits-assembling convenience as a theft, borrowing, or copying of another's design...especially yours! Once or twice (that's it) I've been asked about other assembly geometries that resemble "Chris' other flavors", and simply comment according to their technical merits as I see them.
My point is that there is no choice customers seem too be making re "who they want to do business with" based upon anything but totally ethical, fairly objective (we all try!), low-cost practices. I have had no derogatory feedback re your business practices, nor mine. We're both
doing a good thing here, so I really would like to see a reorientation of your perspective toward my efforts. If anything your name is held in higher esteem by those who have assembled my kit and have known about you beforehand.
I appreciate that a few enquirers know a bit about 83802 from your site before they contact me, as well, although that does seem to be a small minority of those I've communicated with.
I'm rather surprised that there would be any concern about the possibility of intellectual profiteering in my part-time endeavors marketing a $35 product when there are others out there chsrging hundreds of dollars for this "design" incognito! Guess my transparency makes me an easy target? I suggest we focus on debunking the megaprofiteers nstead of squabbling with each other.
Thanks.
Ern

If someone is looking to take credit for the research and design work on these cords and the specific materials being used, i can pretty much state without hesitation that Chris is the originator of said designs and may have received a bit of help or a "few suggestions" from Steve Eddy ( and i think that Chris has stated this publicly ).

Prior to Chris talking about these specific materials for use in power cords, i don't know of anyone that had publicly used or recommended these specific Belden products for use as AC power cords. If anyone had done so, i would say that it "might" have been Jon Risch and his comments "might be" to try the Belden designs in stock form. To be quite honest, i'm not sure about that and i simply included that as i know that Jon is both a BIG fan of Belden products and of Teflon dielectric. As such, it would not have been "impossible" for him to have suggested such a use for these cables. I don't think that Chris has anything to hide and would give credit where credit is due. That is, IF Jon had come up with the idea or helped him out in any way.

With that in mind, the "modified" Belden designs, as far as i know, are the intellectual properties of Chris. Whether or not Chris can claim any type of legal or proprietary rights to these designs is another story. I do know that using someone else's name to sell a product that you make or market would be considered an endorsement and probably require some type of contract to do so. I don't know if Ernie has ever actually labeled these as "parts kits for Chris VH's cables" though.

Having said that, i have mentioned these cords on a few occasions and done so stating that they work in a very positive manner. In doing so, i have included links to Chris' website AND on a few occassions, mentioned that Ernie was selling parts / kits to make these or very similar cords. I never meant to infer that that these were Ernie's designs, only that he did have access to parts for such designs and was offering them in kit form and making them available to the public.

Out of all of this, all i can say is that Chris, Jon Risch and Bob Crump have been VERY kind and helpful by sharing their designs and making them public knowledge. All three have done so without asking for ANY type of compensation for the R&D ( which can eat up a LOT of time, labor and materials ) that went into coming up with the designs that they did. Obviously, there are those that have profited from this "shared" and "public" info with some folks even starting companies to make these products and / or parts available. I know that Kevin was selling Bob Crump's cord, Wayne at Bolder Cables is offering Jon's designs, Steve Rochlin's digital cable and probably some of Chris' too. I'm not sure about that, but i don't doubt it one bit.

Obviously, Ernie has jumped into the ring too, but done so in a different manner. Whereas all of the others have basically listed / given credit to the designers at one point in time, i don't think that Ernie has done so. As such, i can somewhat understand where Chris is coming from, even though he has seen fit to make such designs public domain. So, if "fair is fair" and nobody is worried about payment for design work or someone else making profit off of buying and assembling the parts to further the spread and use of such a design, i can see an easy way out of this whole controversy. I'm not going to spell it out, but it should be pretty obvious to those involved from where i'm sitting. Sean
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Subaruguru, It's baffling why you "have no idea what Belden says about 110v use" (of their 83802, etc.). This must be at least the fourth time I have referenced the reply from Belden tech support in this forum. They say:
"These cables are not designed for use as 110 Volt Power Supply cables. They are listed as "Control and Instrumentation" cables for Fire Alarm and Tray applications."
That means they do not recommend it in-wall from the electrical panel to wall receptacle in residential 110v service. It's unlikely they approve it for cords either, but outside the wall is not the issue. How many audio power cords are UL approved? I do not think the use of a conduit would change their recommendation for in-wall use of 83802, but rather than guessing about it you should email Belden tech support and ask them yourself.

It makes no difference to me other than giving accurate advice to the forum readers. The method of running a ground wire is irrelevant if the cable is not approved in the first place.