Do you think you need a subwoofer?

Tim, Was this last post intended to make the rest of us feel good about the prospects of installing and positioning four subs in a listening room?  If so, it didn't work.  In my case, the listening room is our living room.  There is no video in the room at all. Apart from the physically huge audio system (Sound Lab 845PXs on the front wall and three turntables on the back wall, for example), the decor is art deco with a lot of antiques and original art works.  It's a pleasant place to be away from video, a bit smaller than your room but similar in proportions.  I would hate to have to watch out for tripping over subwoofers whilst walking around the room to change records, or when we are entertaining guests at parties.  I'll talk to Duke.

lewm:

" Tim, Was this last post intended to make the rest of us feel good about the prospects of installing and positioning four subs in a listening room?  If so, it didn't work."

Hi lewm,

     Yes,I was trying to mitigate the angst many likely experience at the thought of positioning 4 subs in their listening rooms.  My post was meant to convey that I was concerned about this, too, but that it was easier to incorporate 4 subs into my room than I initially thought.  In your case, unfortunately, you're not buying what I'm selling.

     I understand this solution may not work for everyone.  My only motivation for posting at all was to share what I know is a very effective method of attaining excellent bass response in any room that works well for both high quality 2-ch music and HT.  It is the only method I'm aware of that has this capability along with eliminating the vast majority of bass standing waves in any room which results in consistently accurate and tuneful bass throughout the entire room no matter where you are standing or sitting.

" I would hate to have to watch out for tripping over subwoofers whilst walking around the room to change records, or when we are entertaining guests at parties.  I'll talk to Duke."

     I think you would be well served by talking to Duke LeJeune at AudioKinesis.  In your case, I would suspect that you'd likely find the subs would sound best in the following positions:

The front 2 subs along the front wall behind, and discreetly hidden by,  your large Sound Labs.
One each of the back 2 subs opposite each other at some points along your side walls.

     This is only an educated guess and, of course, only you could determine if these positions would work for you.  I actually think the Debra or Swarm 4 sub system, with 4 dispersed 10" woofers, could be an ideal match for integrating well with high quality, fast electrostatic panels like sound Labs.  
     My only concern would be the possibility of the 2 side wall subs transmitting vibrations to your turntables along your rear wall.  
     I have no dog in this fight, but I really believe you would be pleasantly surprised how well a distributed bass array system could work in your room.

Please discuss with Duke.

Thanks,
  Tim

       

     

     

Dear @noble100 : For what I read from you we owns very different systems with different targets, mine is only to enjoy MUSIC and " mainly through the analog alternative that with so many troubles, limitations and disadvantages ( very well know ones. ) made it for me a huge almost titanic constant system " figth " trying to achieve the best quality level performance.
I’m not a bass’s lover but for years I learned and knew its main and critical importance to achieve that target and you know what?: I was and am not wrong in this main audio subject.

As I said I took along a complete year to achieve the precise integration of my Velodynes to my room/system with out room treatment or equalization about.

I know that with your bass array alternative i took to you 5 hours, good. I can’t discuss if your bass management room/sytem handling is better than mine for stereo MUSIC reproduction.

If you look to my virtual system, my subs position is way unorthodox for say the least: are  in front of my great ADS speakers viewing in between with the driver looking each to other Velodyne.

Btw, I have the room to have that four bass array units but before I can think on that maybe I will try what I learned from that JBL scientific studies that 3 subs are better than 2 and 4 units the " ideal " one.

I really appreciated your first time valuable contribution in this thread that try to cover perhaps the more unknowed audio main subject ever. Unknowed not only by we mere " mortal " audiophiles but for proffesional reviewer, manufacturers, designers and audio retailers/distributors.

Ignorance level is the name of the game in this case.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @lewm : You brougth here a serious, for its importance, bass management subject and this is the way subwoofers are designed or loading cabinet: ported/reflex/transmision line, sealed-acoustic suspension, isobarik and other that escape to my mind.
Where you decided to go with transmision line loading your subs in the Beveridge room.

The best experiences I had and have are with sealed units: isobarik Linn ( the Sara model in between. ) design, my ADS acoustic suspension/sealed and Velodyne subs.

The Linn Isobarik that I heard was really really good ( very low distortions. ) in the bass frequency range even with not to big speaker cabinets/box.
I remember heard the IMF and TDL transmision line speaker designs and like it a lot but that " laberynth/tunneling design at the end is open, yes it has lower distortion than a reflex or other vented designs and as the Isobarik with not big cabinets/boxes where my ADS to achieve its bass quality and efficiency needs a big box and very special design to go low on distortion levels.

I don’t doubt that your subs performs good but I’m sure it can’t performs better than the true bass expertes design on Velodyne and not only because I own it or because are sealed but because I made ( as I posted in this thread ) a deep investigation over the subs market and no one can compete ( even today ) with Velodyne. Remember that I’m talking here about quality bass reproduction and not bass quantity of the same.

Yes, there are more expensive units or best looking ones or that goes lower than Velodyne like JL , Rel ( only to name two of many out there. ) and others but no one can " live " not even near the Velodyne when we are talking of DIDTORTION LEVELS.

I put an example: while the JL subs performs with over 6% of THD at 20hz at 110 dbs on SPL Velodynes performs at only 0.5% ! ! thank’s that the unit is monitoring the woofer excursion over 16k times each second.

I know for sure that after my Velodynes be connected through those electrical regulators that DISTORTION LEVELS goes even lower and this is the main subject here: QUALITY LEVEL.


Btw, last nigth I really pushed my Velodynes through recordings that are not specific because its bass range stand alone but because use synthetizers between other instruments including full symphonic orchestras.
What I want to achieve is if at some SPL I can have in my listening room or outside it some kind of rattle in diferent things that are in that living room.

So, I push it at very high SPL that I measured at my seat position as : 105 db with peaks over 112 dbs ( even I " closed " my ears at this volume. ) and no single rattle, glass resonances or rare vibations or that something collapsed not even the soundstage and focus. !!!!

That is unbeliable for any one ( nas I said: distortions gone really lower ! ! !. ) but me that experienced it and this tell me that I’m in a new audio era/century/reborn.

@lewm till you can achieve that experience in your system you can’t know how much you ( everyone. ) are losting of MUSIC as I did it for more than 40+ audio years mand that audio losted years was thanks to that AHEE.




Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Raul,

     I'm sorry but I'm having a hard time reading and making sense of your posts.  I think I'm getting the general idea but I'm not certain.

Thanks,
   Tim