Do you think you need a subwoofer?


Why almost any one needs subwoofers in their audio systems?

I talk with my audio friends about and each one give me different answers, from: I don't need it, to : I love that.

Some of you use subwoofers and many do in the speakers forum and everywhere.

The question is: why we need subwoofers ? or don't?

My experience tell me that this subwoofers subject is a critical point in the music/sound reproduction in home audio systems.

What do you think?
Ag insider logo xs@2xrauliruegas
Raul,from a "purley listening experience" perspective,and from what "your own ears" told you(not some importer), what problem did you think you encountered with the Ascent's "complex" crossover(btw,it is over 130 parts,whew)?....I'd be interested in how you arrived at "why" the complexity of the crssover is to be considered a "weakness" from a "listening criteria only",since the speaker is as "clear as spring water" to me.Maybe I need to reevaluate my tastes?
This gives me a clue as to how you actually view the hobby....Whether you "hear the problem",or you feel the fact that there are too many component parts employed is the weakness.

Also,could you please let me know what your listening room's floor material is?Wood?Concrete?etc

Just curious,as this gives me some perspective as to your specific tastes.

Thanks.
Dear Sirspeedy: Too many parts where the signal goes through. In those times seems to me that the Avatar was its best performer model, of course that because does not go so deep had lower " problems ".

Floor material?: concrete with a 1" pure wool oriental rug.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Raul I simply cannot let your assumption of audio theory trump a "fact",which greatly affects the listening experience,and "minimizes a designers expertise,and great effort"...of course you may take the comments as my being defensive about your thoughts,and it may be correct,to an extent...BUT you are absolutely clueless about your impression that more parts in the Ascent Mk-II crossover "means" loss of signal transmission or loss of musical information,or just some kind of weakness....I definitely believe your exposure to the speaker was from some demos given by your friend,who was the distributor,and your claims are baseless to me,and owner of the design,and someone who was at it's inception into the audio community.From it's introduction onwards.

Distributors want to "distribute/sell" equipment.They "generally" are not privvy to the minutiae of design,and I don't blame them.

Your claim about the Ascent crossover being a weakness "absolutely" tells me you have no knowledge what-so-ever,as to what has gone into this design.

What we want from a speaker,aside from great sound,is the ability to drive it with a wide variety of amplifiers.Hence,keeping the load/impedence relatively easy for whatever amp one wants to use.

We want a constant impedence,and a sensitive design with good efficiency.The vast majority of "popular" speakers today are poor representations of this.ALL of the newer Avalon Designs are now ported(Re-read my previous posting about the .5 Q factor and transient behavior,as they are FACT,not assumption)and have loads that go down to 3.2 ohms,which are hard on an amp(distortion?).
They also have internal crossovers,which are absolutely not the best place for sensitive parts,but lower production costs.
The AVATAR was the last design Charles Hansen designed for the "original "Avalon!It was designed to a price point(unlike the "cost no object" Ascent MK-II)and was a far cheaper product than the Ascent.Still a very good speaker,but totally outclassed by it's big brother!.

The Ascent MK-II was a clean slate speaker design that was designed with no limit on costs,hence the "two" external crossovers(total of 110 lbs,and 350 lbs for the speakers themselves)and the ABILITY to keep a CONSTANT impedence of 6 ohms across the ENTIRE freq range.It NEVER drops below 5.5 ohms.The crossover's complexity is another reason why "each seperate driver" see's it's own dedicated amplifier,from one amp ONLY,AND the sophisticated damping circuits employeed allow for this HUGE advantage!Far less IMD(a term you like alot).

Your lack of "true knowledge" about this design(having heard it is no substitute for actually knowing every aspect of it design benefits),and the incorrect/negative comments made about the crossover,takes away from the original designer's extreme efforts that went into "that" speaker!!

AND the design efforts were thorough,and EXTREME!!One reason I know this is I had followed the design development(from afar,but greatly interested) and personally knew the original reviewer,who gave credibility and exposure to such a "landmark "product.
It is a "textbook" speaker,for those "understanding" the significant advantages of "constant impedence","easy load","extraordinary transient response","open sound with stunninmg clarity/definition/harmonic truth",and almost non-existant stored energy,not to mention a "still" unequalled ability to soundstage properly!..

Of course you are free to draw any conclusions you want,but as of the here and now,you have exposed yourself as being human,like the rest of us...That is you make assumptions without "all" the facts,let theory affect your thoughts,and are as influenced by industry trends as all of us!

Not a bad thing,really.Just human!

Best.
Dear Mark: What is all " these " about?. You return ( by any topic ) again and again.

I never say that the Ascents were a bad design or a bad sounding speaker. I only say that IMHO its crossover is one of its disadvantages, because you can't tell me that that speaker is " perfect " with out any disadvantages.

266 parts where the signal must pass on ( see it. ) could be an advantage ( from your point of view ) or could not be an advantage ( from my point of view ).

CH made its own speaker trade-offs design where you or any one else can or can't agree/like ( I'm not saying nothing like an in deep criticism on the design. ), it is just audio opinion democracy.

Please read what a Ascent owner ( that change to the Eidolon ) say about:

++++ The Ascents are not particularly efficient, meaning that they like amplifiers that deliver lots of clean power. I have been running them with VAC 140 monoblocks, which is a great match, but they also sound great with good solid state amps. These particular speakers are the Mark II model. This means that the drivers and crossovers were upgraded from the original release. Eventually, Avalon used its experience in developing their massive and extremely pricey Osiris model to create the Eidolon, which has replaced the Ascents in their lineup of products. The Eidolon does all of the same things that the Ascents do, only better. +++++

other than what we can read, you say: +++ and a sensitive design with good efficiency. " ++++

well this owner thinks: ++++ The Ascents are not particularly efficient.... " +++++

You know another opinion: just democracy!.

And there are extreme opinions about, take a look:

++++I'll get straight to the point. The Vandersteen 1 B loudspeaker is, at $695 the pair, something of an embarrassment for its pricier transducing brethren in the High End. Not because it is better than the $7000 ProAc Response Three, $9200 Stax F41, or $15,000 Avalon Ascent Mk II , outstanding speakers with which I am personally familiar), but because it is so good at $695.00 that one must wonder why we would spend 10 times as much or more for an incremental improvement that is certainly not commensurate. " +++++

Returning to the " constant impedance " on the Ascents I can't find a real measure about but I find from the Eclipse and Avatar: where their impedance specs you can read: nominal 6 Ohms and no below 5.5 Ohms ( similar of what you posted on the Ascents. ) that in the Stereophile Eclipse review its REAL electrival impedance is far far from be " constant impedance ", not only that but has trouble about depending which amp you are using to handle. The speaker efficiency is too in the low side ( 86db ) like the Avatar and Ascent: not like you say: ++ with good efficiency ++++

Could you show me that Ascent " constant impedance " graph that you are speaking? and ( between other things ) that is one of its crossover design advantage?.

Maybe you misunderstood the Ascent " crossover advantages " or think that your opinion is the " good " one and maybe it is for you: no problem about, is fine with me: only permit to " speak/talk " my self opinion about ( that I'm not saying in any way that is the " universal true " and nothing but the true. ), Mark it is only other opinion: not big deal on...!!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.