Eliminated my preamp with amazing results

@retiredfarmer 

Thank you for such a thoughtful reply! So sorry to hear of your accident. I truly wish you the best.

I think we're on the same page. Without experimentation how does one know if there system is as good as it can be or how far you can take it? These experiments (including subwoofers, room placement,  etc...) have given me a better understanding of meaningful changes. I always say..."how do you know you're doing it right unless you do it wrong?"  

I believe many people just plop down their money take it home and plug it in. Since They paid a lot of money surely it sounds amazing!  Especially subwoofers. Most people are clueless to the importance of phase, gain and crossover adjustments. Like buying a Ferrari and not realizing it's tires have low air pressure or poor alignment.

This recent experiment of DAC direct to amp has again opened my eyes to what's possible. In my case, for the preamps I've used,I think there is one common denominator that I can point to as being bad. Older or lower quality potentiometers are NOT good. Even in a passive unit like the TLC-1 I'm starting to believe the POT is causing a loss in resolution making it lose dynamic presence. DAC direct restored the missing resolution (thanks to Audirvana and it's ability for high quality volume control.) A higher quality preamp with a proper volume control should certainly be equal to OR better than. I agree with you and will do experiments with other preamps shortly. For now I'm done with my current preamps. They're out.

The other issue I'm struggling with is why are manufacturers adding all this gain? The DAC adds gain then goes to the preamp that has more gain and now you can't get the volume knob up over 9 o'clock. I don't see any reason that streaming music needs this. In fact, looking at the recent trends, manufacturers are making units that have less gain and go more direct DAC to the amp with just volume control. 

So, for anyone to suggest a system is better with a preamp have they tried something like the Lumin or Eversolo ? If not, then they don't really know what's possible. It's highly possible that money spent on these units INSTEAD of a preamp may yield a higher performance. Especially the advancements in DAC chips have a huge effect on the sound. 

Trying not to be bias but I will admit that the idea of running the signal through more electronics is not appealing to me. However, as you suggest, I will keep an open mind.

Best of luck in the new year!

Not just an argument for the digital world. Many years ago, I invested in a PS Audio 4.5/4.26 preamp, which had a "straightwire" function that disabled all amplification other than the phono stage. Essentially, it became a switching volume control. At the time, my sources were a very high-output moving coil cartridge and a CD player’s line-level output. No problem with volume levels.

Driving a pair of restored Quad ESL’s and Quad 2 monoblocks, it was exquisite. So bypassing the preamplification function is far from a new idea, but still makes sense only in certain contexts. I applaud the OP for thinking outside the cabinet in this case.

By the way, I still have that 4.6 sitting in a closet, and maybe it even still works, if somebody wants to buy it as-is for cheap. Check out Tom Norton's recently republished Stereophile review.

From a Valin review of the MSB Reference DAC.  I use this DAC in my system with no preamp.  I run my phono pre into its extra balanced input.  Get the same results as describe by the reviewer;

"I’ll let MSB explain its preamp module (and if you hear an echo of MBL’s LASA 2.0 White Paper it’s because, well, great minds think alike): “It has been MSB’s dream for many years to allow its ladder DACs to drive interconnects and amplifiers directly. By definition, a conventional preamp takes in the audio-industry standard signal and boosts it up to full volume for the sole purpose of turning it down again! MSB’s ladder DACs put out full volume, so no such gain is needed. The signal of the hybrid DACs only needs to be attenuated (turned down), and this is accomplished using MSB’s preamp module with its newly invented passive attenuator—a constant-impedance, passive volume control with no active circuitry in the analog path.”

This “minimum parts” preamplifying scheme, which eliminates the need for a costly, separate, signal-degrading component full of active circuits (and a costly signal-degrading interconnect to hook the DAC to the pre), is claimed to produce “extraordinary overall clarity.” And, boy, does it ever! And not just with digital signals. (I’m not sure I’ve heard better analog reproduction than what I get using the MSB’s passive analog attenuator, Lloyd Walker’s extraordinary phonostage, the Constellation Hercules II Stereo amplifier, Magico M3 loudspeakers with or without a pair of QSubs, and Lloyd’s Proscenium V turntable with Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement cartridge.)"

@skinzy 

Thanks for sharing this info.

This says it all... 

By definition, a conventional preamp takes in the audio-industry standard signal and boosts it up to full volume for the sole purpose of turning it down again! MSB’s ladder DACs put out full volume, so no such gain is needed. The signal of the hybrid DACs only needs to be attenuated (turned down), and this is accomplished using MSB’s preamp module with its newly invented passive attenuator—a constant-impedance, passive volume control with no active circuitry in the analog path.”

The other issue I'm struggling with is why are manufacturers adding all this gain? The DAC adds gain then goes to the preamp that has more gain and now you can't get the volume knob up over 9 o'clock. I don't see any reason that streaming music needs this. In fact, looking at the recent trends, manufacturers are making units that have less gain and go more direct DAC to the amp with just volume control. 

@gdaddy1 IMO Phillips and Sony made a stupid mistake when they set the Redbook spec to 2V output with digital gear, more than many amps need to overload. I think their reasoning must have been that once you hear digital, you'll never want to hear any other source. Obviously if that was the thinking, it was grossly incorrect.

A smarter thing to do would have been to allow for a lower level DAC output in addition to the regular line section that's built into all DACs and CD players. This way if you happen to have a phono, tuner, tape machine or other source (perhaps video) you could use a regular preamp and get maximum fidelity....

The reason I still use an active preamp, even though my DAC has a good volume control, is because I run balanced lines and the DAC doesn't support the balanced line standard even though it has balanced outputs. I run 30' cables and because my preamp supports the standard, those cables don't have to be expensive to sound right.

FWIW most 'balanced line' products you see aimed at the high end market do not support the standard. As a result you hear cable differences with them, which the balanced line system is supposed to eliminate!