Eliminated my preamp with amazing results

From a Valin review of the MSB Reference DAC.  I use this DAC in my system with no preamp.  I run my phono pre into its extra balanced input.  Get the same results as describe by the reviewer;

"I’ll let MSB explain its preamp module (and if you hear an echo of MBL’s LASA 2.0 White Paper it’s because, well, great minds think alike): “It has been MSB’s dream for many years to allow its ladder DACs to drive interconnects and amplifiers directly. By definition, a conventional preamp takes in the audio-industry standard signal and boosts it up to full volume for the sole purpose of turning it down again! MSB’s ladder DACs put out full volume, so no such gain is needed. The signal of the hybrid DACs only needs to be attenuated (turned down), and this is accomplished using MSB’s preamp module with its newly invented passive attenuator—a constant-impedance, passive volume control with no active circuitry in the analog path.”

This “minimum parts” preamplifying scheme, which eliminates the need for a costly, separate, signal-degrading component full of active circuits (and a costly signal-degrading interconnect to hook the DAC to the pre), is claimed to produce “extraordinary overall clarity.” And, boy, does it ever! And not just with digital signals. (I’m not sure I’ve heard better analog reproduction than what I get using the MSB’s passive analog attenuator, Lloyd Walker’s extraordinary phonostage, the Constellation Hercules II Stereo amplifier, Magico M3 loudspeakers with or without a pair of QSubs, and Lloyd’s Proscenium V turntable with Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement cartridge.)"

@skinzy 

Thanks for sharing this info.

This says it all... 

By definition, a conventional preamp takes in the audio-industry standard signal and boosts it up to full volume for the sole purpose of turning it down again! MSB’s ladder DACs put out full volume, so no such gain is needed. The signal of the hybrid DACs only needs to be attenuated (turned down), and this is accomplished using MSB’s preamp module with its newly invented passive attenuator—a constant-impedance, passive volume control with no active circuitry in the analog path.”

The other issue I'm struggling with is why are manufacturers adding all this gain? The DAC adds gain then goes to the preamp that has more gain and now you can't get the volume knob up over 9 o'clock. I don't see any reason that streaming music needs this. In fact, looking at the recent trends, manufacturers are making units that have less gain and go more direct DAC to the amp with just volume control. 

@gdaddy1 IMO Phillips and Sony made a stupid mistake when they set the Redbook spec to 2V output with digital gear, more than many amps need to overload. I think their reasoning must have been that once you hear digital, you'll never want to hear any other source. Obviously if that was the thinking, it was grossly incorrect.

A smarter thing to do would have been to allow for a lower level DAC output in addition to the regular line section that's built into all DACs and CD players. This way if you happen to have a phono, tuner, tape machine or other source (perhaps video) you could use a regular preamp and get maximum fidelity....

The reason I still use an active preamp, even though my DAC has a good volume control, is because I run balanced lines and the DAC doesn't support the balanced line standard even though it has balanced outputs. I run 30' cables and because my preamp supports the standard, those cables don't have to be expensive to sound right.

FWIW most 'balanced line' products you see aimed at the high end market do not support the standard. As a result you hear cable differences with them, which the balanced line system is supposed to eliminate!

My preamp set-up is a unity gain buffer, so I get the benefit of controlling the cables without adding gain. 

On the DAC side of things, some manufacturers are addressing the gain issue by including optional lower gain output settings, like with the Benchmark DAC3 HGC and the Tambaqui I recently had here.  My SMc DAC-2 only outputs 2V so does not require anything more than my unity gain set-up but also does not overwhelm the amplifier input.  The third DAC I have here outputs 4V, which means I use a slightly lower volume control setting to achieve the same sound level.

I have a related question - when my preamp broke I made the same discovery while it was away for repair (RME ADI DAC2 now goes directly into McIntosh 462 amp). Both components have balanced connections. I have discovered that my tube pre (ARC LS25 II) is not helping this chain, but is a good thing for the  phone that I am also running. If I use a switch that goes balanced in and preamp in, then balanced out to the power amp, how much will the sound be degraded. Does anyone know a switch made with good components etc. for balanced connections? Thanks a lot for your help.