Ethernet Cables, do they make a difference?

cleeds - ...But they were met by the forum's self-proclaimed objectivists with some odd preconditions, including a $25,ooo wager and agreements prepared by attorneys for "protection.....

gdhal

What's odd about asking to handle the matter privately?

Seeking private information from users of an Internet forum, requiring a $25,000 advance payment - what you call an "escrow" - and negotiating terms of a listening test through attorneys is more than just odd, and has more than the whiff of fraud. It's clear that you're trying to conceal the details of your ruse.

jimf42 - it doesn’t matter whether or not there is an objective change as long as you perceive a difference.

And this is why blind testing is very fair and extremely useful in these matters. It allows the listener who is subjected to the test to "guess" or otherwise "perceive" a difference, irrespective of whether or not there truly is one. I’ve stated numerous times - in response to objections that blind testing doesn’t prove anything - that what I’ve proposed (Amy > Bob, repeat) is NOT meant to prove anything. Instead, it is meant to *demonstrate* your ability to *reliably* hear what is impossible to hear, and what YOU claim YOU can hear.

💰

EDIT:

It’s also the reason folks attempt to "save face" once they clearly think-it-over. 🤐

if you can hear it even if you just think you can hear it, sure go ahead and spend the money for peace of mind. it doesn't matter whether or not there is an objective change as long as you perceive a difference. 

Could this thread possibly get any stupider?

It can as it has the owner of www.machinadynamica.com participating. 

John Stronczer provided the explanation, and you prefer to ignore it.

Uh, what are you talking about?

@geoffkait. You are not interested in an explanation. 

Uh, he’s wise to me? What’s that, mob talk? You are a wiseguy, just as I suspected, Poodleman. 🐩

@geoffkait

Reminder.... you have yet to call jinjuku 📞

Caution.... he is wise to your witchcraft 💀

If you have a forte you keep it well hidden, Poodleman. 🐩

geoffkait - >>>>>>>>Poodleman, we thank you for your almost grammatically correct explanation. One assumes the high schools on Long Island are a little bit behind the US norm.

Spelling and grammar was never my forte. I leave that for my attorneys 😄

I erred in a previous post as well. I meant to enter "lose" and instead wrote "loose". At least I can admit when I make a mistake. This is a quality you - geoffkait - find it beyond yourself to embrace. 😪 To err is human. To hear a difference when ordinary speaker wire is reversed is inhuman. 👍🏻

🐩
gdhal
jbny - I am more interested to hear why those who are hearing a difference in the sound of their files via Ethernet cabling think it is happening?

A *possible* explanation is a delusional episode. Another possible reason is that the listener is merely dishonest - with themself.

>>>>Poodleman, we thank you for your almost grammatically correct explanation. One assumes the high schools on Long Island are a little bit behind the US norm. 😛

@kosst_amojan  also will not reveal the brand and model of his MQA-certified, Roon-ready DAC with an Ethernet input. Without owning such a DAC, he cannot physically test his theory. 

@kosst_amojan. Once again, self-proclaimed expert with an untested theory, knows more than the engineers who designed the very best DACs. Nothing will convince him, and I mean nothing, because he refuses to test it.  He is too intellectually dull to understand the level of his own incompetence. He is not an expert. 

jbny - I am more interested to hear why those who are hearing a difference in the sound of their files via Ethernet cabling think it is happening?

A *possible* explanation is a delusional episode. Another possible reason is that the listener is merely dishonest - with themself.

See, it just got even stupider. I didn’t think it was possible. Is this a slow day at Jersey Mike’s, Poodleman? 🐩

geoffkait -  Could this thread possibly get any stupider?

Only as you continue to post.

cleeds - ...But they were met by the forum's self-proclaimed objectivists with some odd preconditions, including a $25,ooo wager and agreements prepared by attorneys for "protection.....

What's odd about asking to handle the matter privately? Maybe you expect that by posting on the forum, others will pay once you loose  🤣

Could this thread possibly get any stupider? 

jinjuku - I think a highly credible audiophile is one that is able to validate their hearing in an intellectually honest manner.

+1

And as I've stated elsewhere, that means a blind test. You know, Amy > Bob > Amy > Bob.

markinsantamonica - In short answer, it is simply not physically possible for your ethernet cables to make a difference in sound quality.

+1

And that is true, even when you *reverse* it. 🤣

kosst_amojan - And Clearthink, how did you come up with that name?

🤣

Still waiting for my phone call from Geoff to make my system sound great. All for the low, low price of $60.

Got to figure out how to hardwire my cell phone so the RFI bogymen don't mess it up. 

cleeds - Perhaps that was your offer. The proposal to which I refer required a $25,000 advance payment and agreement crafted by an attorney for the supposed "protection" of the listener.

You should be a politician. You neglected to mention "escrow". That ends your argument  😎

geoffkait - Whaddya know, there are two Mafioso scammers here on this thread. What are the odds? Fuggedaboudit.

Would this qualify as number three?  🤣
https://www.machinadynamica.com/

Whaddya know, there are two Mafioso scammers here on this thread. What are the odds? Fuggedaboudit.

jinjuku - So are moderators allowing monetary inducement now? If so I would like to repost my offer.

@jinjuku

I wouldn’t know the answer to your question. However, if your question is legitimate, it would seem to me the correct channel of communication would be to the audiogon support email address. At least, to start your inquiry. 🤔 😀

Invariably, I am able to detect the sincerity or lack thereof of a person by virtue of their actions, or inaction, as the case may be. 😇 😎

EDIT:
🤑

To all everyone now sees that your repeated demands for double-blind listening tests and your $25,000 USD listening challenge is a fraud and that you don't see this is a reflection of a problem with you which you have previously acknowledged in this group and which I will not mention because I am not going to make fun of you even if your problem is a result of your own bad choices.

So are moderators allowing monetary inducement now? If so I would like to repost my offer. 

gdhal"clearthink - I have now shown....." "To whom?"
To all everyone now sees that your repeated demands for double-blind listening tests and your $25,000 USD listening challenge is a fraud and that you don't see this is a reflection of a problem with you which you have previously acknowledged in this group and which I will not mention because I am not going to make fun of you even if your problem is a result of your own bad choices.

clearthink - I have now shown.....

To whom? 🤣

gdhal"clearthink - Of course it is your absolute and undeniable right to exclude me from your $25,000 USD offer, which only leaves the remaining question of weather this is an offer you would consider extending to other interested parties." " Suffice it to say that any interested party knows the appropriate communication channel in which to reach me and find out 🤑"

I have now shown beyond any reasonable doubt that your $25,000 USD challenge has all the appearance of an abject fraud and that your effort to exchange details of the challenge outside of the public eye and to obtain personal information and negotiate the terms under the rigid control of your attorney's for "protection" is part of the fraud and that you have no interest at all in scientifically establishing the validity of your claims which to be clear I never did!

clearthink - Of course it is your absolute and undeniable right to exclude me from your $25,000 USD offer, which only leaves the remaining question of weather this is an offer you would consider extending to other interested parties.

Suffice it to say that any interested party knows the appropriate communication channel in which to reach me and find out 🤑

gdhal"I'm withdrawing to deal with you, specifically"

Of course it is your absolute and undeniable right to exclude me from your $25,000 USD offer, which only leaves the remaining question of weather this is an offer you would consider extending to other interested parties.

clearthink - Well what you write hear is obviously a very much response to my questions even though you evaded it so I will ask you then given this change on your behalf are you withdrawing your offer....

@clearthink

I'm withdrawing to deal with you, specifically. 😐

gdhal"I appreciate your seeking my opinion, but I’ll opt to not respond to your question."

Well what you write hear is obviously a very much response to my questions even though you evaded it so I will ask you then given this change on your behalf are you withdrawing your offer of your previous $25,000 USD challenge or are you stating hear for the record and interest of all those concerned that the offer stands but only if the test is conducted using the Wal-Mart able of your specification?   

clearthink - Please explain your fascination with wire obtained from Wal-Mart that is not designed for use in Music Reproduction Systems and why this wire in particular should be the wire you employ in your $25,000 USD listening challenge.

@clearthink
I appreciate your seeking my opinion, but I’ll opt to not respond.

gdhal"Given what you are (now) indicating there is nothing further for you and I to communicate to one another regarding any aspect of this matter."

Please explain your fascination with wire obtained from Wal-Mart that is not designed for use in Music Reproduction Systems and why this wire in particular should be the wire you employ in your $25,000 USD listening challenge.  

@clearthink - As I have said from the very beginning of our many communications regarding this topic I am not sure that I could detect such a difference and in fact have never on any occassion either in this forum or elsewhere made the claim that I could detect such a difference...

@clearthink

Given what you are (now) indicating there is nothing further for you and I to communicate to one another regarding any aspect of this matter. Kindly consider the matter completely closed.

EDIT:

You didn’t write "no thank you". 😏

gdhal"I understand you are now attempting to "save face" by pretending you have misunderstood what it is you and I have been discussing."
Ask yourself why have I insisted on lawyers, a contract and an escrow account. It is to avoid any misunderstanding by clarifying the details in writing and be in a position to enforce the release of funds (if and when we arrive at that point).

I am not pretending anything hear at all I am trying to understand the exact precise and absolute terms of your $25,000 USD listening challenge and the advantage of discussing it hear in public is that everyone can see what is going on and decide for themselves the extent to which your representations are sincere genuine and honest.

"The idea is not to compare the ordinary wire to something else. It is to compare it to itself, once its orientation has been changed. You know, reversed. "

As I have said from the very beginning of our many communications regarding this topic I am not sure that I could detect such a difference and in fact have never on any occassion either in this forum or elsewhere made the claim that I could detect such a difference so I am uncertain why you would ask that I put up $25,000 USD to prove that I could? It would certainly be worth experimenting to establish under a scientific protocol whether such a change might be reliably detectable but I am not sure why you would insist on a $25,000 payment and agreement with lawyers to perform this test unless you're motives are not sincere genuine and honest so please explain perhaps a better test would be to study the audible differences of your cheap Wal-Mart wire with something specifically specified designed and fabricated for use in Music Reproduction Systems.

@spaceman - as kids today say, whatev.

geoffkait - Anyone who agrees to your terms would have to be even more naive than you appear to be. I bet you have never done a blind test in your life.

Actually I have performed blind testing. It really isn’t as overly complicated as you make it out to be, especially if the goal is merely to be honest with oneself. By this I mean there really is no need to prove anything. A simple "demonstration" of your hearing ability (or lack thereof) is sufficient.

Besides, I’m not one who claims the impossible. 😂

EDIT:

@geoffkait

You didn't write "no thank you". 😏

Anyone who agrees to your terms would have to be even more naive than you appear to be. I bet you have never done a blind test in your life.

geoffkait - 25 trials? Are you crazy? That’s a lot more trials than even The Amazing Randi demanded. And he never lost a blind test challenge. Why? Because nobody can sit there and pay close attention for 25 trials. Not even for ten trials. Gimme a break. What a ripoff! If the differences are of the subtle variety nobody can pick the correct one many times in a row. That’s the scam. Capish?

@geoffkait

I agree in principal that listener fatigue can influence the test. The wiki article I’ve indicated indicates "QSC recommended that no more than 25 trials be performed". Twenty five is fair. There needs to be a high enough number (25) and high enough confidence level (95%) to ensure the person under test is not simply "guessing" their way through it. Please forgive me for not wanting to give my money away.

Keep in mind, it remains theoretically possible that regardless of however many tests are involved, the person under test can guess them all correctly. Also, as I’ve pointed out many times, I can tell the difference between Amy > Bob regardless of however many times you play them, regardless of how quickly or slowly the duration between the songs are, regardless of the test type, regardless of time of day, temperature and ANY other circumstance. Therefore, those who claim a "major" and "not so subtle" difference when the impossible is stated, realistically should also be able to demonstrate such claim under any condition. Further, because it is conceivable the person under test can guess correctly or in fact can demonstrate the impossible, there is a chance I would loose. This is a chance I am willing to take. Capiche?

EDIT:

I forgot to mention that if anyone is unhappy with the terms, they are at liberty to decline and write "no thank you". I do recall my writing on more than one occasion, "there is no obligation" to prove anything.

clearthink - And you want me to compare this cheap inferior wire not made to audio purposed for $25K USD to what cable another one from your Home Depot store?

@clearthink -

I understand you are now attempting to "save face" by pretending you have misunderstood what it is you and I have been discussing.

Ask yourself why have I insisted on lawyers, a contract and an escrow account. It is to avoid any misunderstanding by clarifying the details in writing and be in a position to enforce the release of funds (if and when we arrive at that point).

That said, the answer to your question is "no". The idea is not to compare the ordinary wire to something else. It is to compare it to itself, once its orientation has been changed. You know, reversed. This means plus/minus polarity is the same, however, the ends of the wire that are on the amp in test "a" are subsequently attached to the speaker terminals in test "b". Also, the ends of the same wire that are on the speaker in test "a" are attached to the amp terminals in test "b". Therefore, whatever the wire, there can be only one spool of it involved. From the spool we shall derive the rest of whatever wiring is required (likely 6 sets).

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to *reliably* determine that you are hearing a difference between test "a" and test "b" (i.e. know whether or not the wire orientation is/was or is/was not reversed).

See the following response to Geoff, which addresses *reliably*.

“....descrime the noise, distortion, etc.” 

Excellent Freudian slip.

@zoom25 also important to descrime the differences observed, i.e. noise, distortion, clarity, etc.

@vtech2000 

Hello Brad,

Do you individually measure each of your cables on a tester (e.g. Fluke) and include the results? Have you by any chance examined signal integrity and PHY power consumption with your cables?

Have you compared different lengths of your own cable, such as 0.5 meters vs. 2 meters? Did you find any differences? If so, which one was preferred?