From whence does Sound Stage come?


What drew me back to this hobby after dabbling in High School, was listening to a friend’s system, in a room over his garage filled with over-stuffed furniture, at least seven different amplifiers and twice that many speakers. What was new to me was a room literally filled with sound, and I couldn’t tell where it was coming from. I climbed over the furniture and put my ear to speaker after speaker, but I was never able to locate the source of the sound. It was a wonderful, awe-filled, experience.

Fast forward to the present. I have now built several systems, in different rooms, with different components. Sometimes I get a ‘sound stage’ where the speakers disappear, sometimes I don’t. I have been told that getting the speakers to disappear is all a matter of placement in the room: “Give me your room dimensions; and I’ll tell you where to place your speakers.” But I can tell you, some speakers disappear, and some speakers announce their presence with every note. I have had odd staging where a particular sound appeared un-naturally at the wrong place (like a cymbal hit at my feet); only to have the issue resolved to a more coherent shape with an upgrade to the analog output stage of the DAC. I have had a decent sound stage cast by a particular pair of speakers, only to have it destroyed with the use of a sub-par power amplifier. I’ve heard reviewers and designers talk about how their component offers sound stage depth as well as width (depth seems to be more difficult to achieve). And then there is the old canard about how tube amps present a ‘halo graphic’ sound stage. I can detail the equipment configurations that have I have put together that succeeded or failed at the goal of presenting a great sound stage, but I’m trying to ask a general question, I am not a bot, and I’m not seeking help with a particular configuration, just help on developing a strategy to tackle the issue of sound stage and imaging of instruments within it. 
I will say that the best sounding solutions I have developed thus far both involved a Schiit Yggdrasil (now at ‘Less-is-More) into a SS McIntosh C100 (circa 1992) and either a tube Rogue ‘Stereo 100’ or a SS McIntosh MC252 power amp powering either the Warfedale W70E or B&W 801 Matrix speakers. If I substitute different amps, speakers, preamp, or DAC, the pyramid crumbles and I start hearing two speakers again; I lose my ‘sound stage,’ which is really concerning (to me). Anyone with more than two years into this hobby is qualified to address this question. I need some help, I can’t just keep throwing equipment (and money) at this issue. Any ideas?

128x128oldrooney

Showing 17 responses by rodman99999

     Without actually being in the room, with your system/media; it would be difficult (an understatement) to accurately diagnose your issue(s), but, whenever a question arises, regarding sound stage and imaging; I suggest the following tests, by which one may determine whether their system actually images, or reproduces a sound stage, as recorded:

      On the Chesky sampler/test CD; David explains in detail, his position on the stage and distance from the mics, as he strikes a tambourine(Depth Test). 

      The LEDR test tells what to expect, if your system performs well, before each segment.

         Online test: https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_ledr.php

         Chesky CD: https://www.ebay.com/p/4046056409

      More info: https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_stereophonicsound.php

       and: http://www.stereophile.com/features/772/

 

     The tests that I referenced are scientifically designed to eliminate all variables, as far as the source/recording.

      If your system reproduces the effects, as recorded and announced/described prior to play; your system will reproduce whatever soundstage and imaging your media contains.

      If not: well...

      

    To quote Bobby Owsinksi from his book:  The Mastering Engineer's Handbook, 4th Edition:

"The LEDR test is a substitute for about $30,000 to $40,000 worth of test equipment."

 

@macg19-

" ...I guess I'm set up fairly well."

                  Affirmation/Confirmation feels good, right?

                                    Happy listening!

@oldrooney -

 "I’m ordering the Chesky CD tomorrow."

      You should find it worth every Cent spent!

       A few helpful room/system evaluation tests, beyond the LEDR.

       Beware of the signal levels, on the CD's last few tests/tones.

                Remember: Rule #1 (highest priority) = Have fun!

@oldrooney - I achieved "the icing on the cake" by getting excellent cables. Of course speaker position and acoustic treatment  are important, but good cables allow the signals to be conveyed as recorded which recreates the venue perfectly*.

Regards, Steve 

       Couldn't have said it better, outside of adding: all drivers in phase and time-aligned.

                 *WELL: I might have said, "...MUCH more closely", rather than, "perfectly".

                                            Happy listening!                   

@oldrooney -

       Be certain all the drivers in your left channel's speaker system are functional.

       If possible: undo any changes made in the room, since the last, full (L/R) soundstage you recall.

       Try to get your listening area as symmetric as possible, as regards reflections.

        In my case (small/crappy listening room, after divorce):  I'm able to place the system/speakers ALMOST equidistant from the side walls, bipolar drivers (mains) 2' from the front wall, with diffusers behind, where their greatest radiation concentration will be focused.   

        Behind listening position: 2" Sonex, from 3' off the floor, to the ceiling (completely eliminated the room's Slap Echo) and LENRDs, same height, in the corners.

        My listening position is 1/3 into the room, away from the back wall and what would have to be considered Near Field (at the apex of an equilateral, 8' sided, triangle).

         Having used planars (Acoustats and Magnepans) for so may decades; I'm used to not having to deal with the wide dispersion, of the typical box speaker and find the output of my Emerald Physics (still very narrowly beamy), easy to predict, with any reflected speaker back waves, directed behind my head/ears, toward the Sonex.

          My seat has a nothing but soft material, round corners and a high back, so: 

                            I hear virtually nothing from the back of the room.

          Though Sabine effects are unavoidable: they're minimized and I use DSP (via TacT RCS 2.2X), to mitigate what's left, beside time-aligning my woofer systems, which now are forced to reside (the small, crappy room, again) behind the mains.

            Played back at any levels approaching those originally recorded; the listening room disappears.

            Closing my eyes takes me to the original performance and venue, with a good recording.

             For the naysayers: YES, I DO have a number of my own recordings, not to mention: a number, made in (otherwise) very familiar venues.

                                     Sorry for the loquaciousness!      

                                               Happy listening!   

 

@oldrooney -

       There are less expensive options available than genuine Sonex, or Auralex (LENRDs), on eBay*.

        I can only assume: they'd be as efficacious, as the real thing.

                              Can't REALLY see why not!

        The 2" depth Sonex did a good job at addressing the frequencies needed, in my current room.      Some experimenting may be required, with your room and variables, but: I wouldn't go any thinner.

         If the basement room is actually a square (all sides even, or can be evenly divided into one another): it may be worse than what you have now.

         If your system used to reproduce an actual/accurate soundstage and proper imaging; you should be able to get it back, if not better, now that you've got the references/tests.

       One qualified square room opinion and possible options: 

https://www.psaudio.com/blogs/ask-paul/what-acoustic-treatment-saves-a-square-room

        Of course: there are others to research, on the 'Net.

 

 

 

 

 

                        Bookcases DO make great diffusers.

    I use my old Magnepan MG12s for front, Home Theatre (5.1) speakers.

    Their back waves fire into a pair, from less than 15", instead of having to be further into room.

                                     You're welcome.

     Here's hoping something in those tips aids in the recovery of your presentation,

                                       whencesoever.                                                    

                                     Happy listening!

     "From whence", was good enough for King James as well.

                           who am I to criticize?

                                               +1

@oldrooney -

      Remember this?

  Be certain all the drivers in your left channel's speaker system are functional.

     Of course: functional and functioning are two different aspects, but...

                           Glad you got everything straightened out.

                                         Happy listening!

 

           Psych was my Minor for a few years.

                   You're FAR from alone!

ie:  https://study.com/learn/lesson/information-overload-overview-examples.html

                         Happy listening!

But when it’s your own stuff, it is easy for anxiety or frustration to overcome one’s senses.

                                          YEP!

                  Been there, done that, got the T-shirt!

      I've been looking for an Undocumented Pharmacist, that deals in Thorazine, of late.

                                     NO JOY, thus far.

                                          ¯\_(ツ)_/¯     

               https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlfoIphZPJY