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Harshness in tweeters: the price of transparency?

Hi,

I can't help notice a correlation between ultimate tweeter transparency and having to put up with harshness at loud volume levels. It can be very transparent and smooth to an appreciable volume, bit exceed that and it will go harsh if you apply the materials necessary for max transparency in those drivers.

I owned titanium dome tweeters in Avalon Eclipse speakers that ultimately caused me a case of a decade-long bout with tinnitus from the titanium dome tweeters, even when using a smooth Music Reference RM-9 tube amp.

I then owned a pair of horns with lightweight metal compression driver diaphragms. Again, unbearable harshness at loud levels where the metal "breaks up".

I now own a pair of beryllium dome tweeeters in speakers that again are volume limited before that metallic glare and harshness comes in. When I had silk domes none of that happened to me, but the details and transparency are markedly down for those drivers at all volumes.

The most transparent drivers I heard were the best tweeter horns but at the cost of harshness. They exceeded electrostatics for dynamics and transparency and detail, but at that cost. Electrostatics seem to me to be the best compromise in midrange on up detail and smoothness but with a real decline in dynamics.

Maybe diamond is the answer with its extreme rigidity and hardness. But I'm not rich enough for that yet, and probably never will be.

What's the scoop on the best tweeters out there for all of what I'm asking for here, but at a reasonable price? One possibility that intrigues me is the ceramic tweeter, but again, I don't know and those are not cheap either.

I want to play horns and cymbals loud and clear, without that bite in my ear. Soft domes aren't enough for me, at least not the ones I've heard after hearing horns and beryllium.
ktstrain
shadorne's avatar
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shadorne
7,477 posts
 
I did go to see Indiana Jones this weekend and it was a very clean horn system without harsh digital artifacts either. It was louder than I ever play my system these days and I walked out with no pain. I want those speakers I think. But those are way too big.

Cinemas can play very loud cleanly. Same as large pro speakers. I think this may be your problem - you are pushing very good little speakers to levels that they simply cannot handle (ringing, compression and distortion). No mystery here, most people would probably never crank it like you and would obviously not experience this problem with their home hi-fi.

I'd suggest a large three way or a large two way with a horn, preferably something used/recommened in pro audio. Remember that horns "honk" or ring when driven hard - something pro designers will take into account and therefore will go to extra lengths to ensure their horns still sound sweet at very loud levels. Same applies to box speakers - requirements for high SPL levels with low distortion will mean an entirely different type driver selections..."horses for courses" if you know what I mean.
rgs92
974 posts
 
To my ears, the best melding of liveness w/o harshness on
even the worst compressed popular-music digital recordings
was accomplished by my former Apogee Stages.
kijanki's avatar
kijanki
4,428 posts
 
Tweeter harshness at high level is related to few things in my opinion:
- Tweeter distortion. Some tweeters like Morel Supreme use underhung motor to keep it very linear even at very high power.
- Loudness effect of tweeter's capacitor
- Room amplification (needs more absorption)
- Harsh electronics/cables (less audible at lower sound levels)

Try Morel Supreme - it is soft dome but with a lot of dynamics. I don't see many Beryllium tweeters on the market but read review of Revel Studio2 and their Be tweeter is exceptional.
mdhoover
695 posts
 
If you'd like to get past this conundrum, consider the amazing Intuitive
Design Summits. The Summits have the most amazing combination of high end smoothness and detail I have ever heard in any loudspeaker, at any price, bar none.

One person said this:
"They have detail and resolution a la Martin
Logan but they are much more musical."
-Eung Kim
undertow
1,033 posts
 
Balance... Some low level efficiency and clarity will cost you at high volumes as things can get "Hot"... One way to deal is how some manufactures do with a L-pad type tweeter dial on the back of the speaker for this exact issue, then you can tweak them back a little but knocking them down 2 or 3db and gain back more power in the bottom end and slightly roll of the highs this way. Yeah doing this adds another component, and costs you pure signal path even further past just a crossover, but something you might want to look into.. Or using an active equalizer, but now you add a whole new component and cables, or simply go with damping all the first point reflections, and getting some bass traps in your room to handle the high transient volume the correct way taming and balancing everything even further, this has very good effect on hi volume listening more so than most simply because you room just can't handle it without acoustic treatments.
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