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Harshness in tweeters: the price of transparency?

Hi,

I can't help notice a correlation between ultimate tweeter transparency and having to put up with harshness at loud volume levels. It can be very transparent and smooth to an appreciable volume, bit exceed that and it will go harsh if you apply the materials necessary for max transparency in those drivers.

I owned titanium dome tweeters in Avalon Eclipse speakers that ultimately caused me a case of a decade-long bout with tinnitus from the titanium dome tweeters, even when using a smooth Music Reference RM-9 tube amp.

I then owned a pair of horns with lightweight metal compression driver diaphragms. Again, unbearable harshness at loud levels where the metal "breaks up".

I now own a pair of beryllium dome tweeeters in speakers that again are volume limited before that metallic glare and harshness comes in. When I had silk domes none of that happened to me, but the details and transparency are markedly down for those drivers at all volumes.

The most transparent drivers I heard were the best tweeter horns but at the cost of harshness. They exceeded electrostatics for dynamics and transparency and detail, but at that cost. Electrostatics seem to me to be the best compromise in midrange on up detail and smoothness but with a real decline in dynamics.

Maybe diamond is the answer with its extreme rigidity and hardness. But I'm not rich enough for that yet, and probably never will be.

What's the scoop on the best tweeters out there for all of what I'm asking for here, but at a reasonable price? One possibility that intrigues me is the ceramic tweeter, but again, I don't know and those are not cheap either.

I want to play horns and cymbals loud and clear, without that bite in my ear. Soft domes aren't enough for me, at least not the ones I've heard after hearing horns and beryllium.
ktstrain
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drubin
3,274 posts
 
Thanks for that detailed and very instructive explanation, Kurt. Your journey is very interesting and your discussion of tinnitus and hyperacusis in an audiophile context is the best I have seen. I am sure you are a legitimate authority on the subject, which I expect is not very well understood by the medical community.

I remember exchanging email with you back in 1995 when I bought Avalon Eclipses and was also having a problem with their tweeter, and I remember you extolling the virtues of the ProAc Response 3.

Dan
dan_ed
2,451 posts
 
Kurt, it is not just the speakers. It is the room response with a particular speaker. For instance, my Edgarhorns measure fairly flat from 4kHz to 10kHz when the mic is ~1 meter from them. but at the listening position in my room there is a rather large dip around 7kHz. My point is that even the horns you heard during Indiana Jones may not work for you in your room.

Good luck in your search.
shadorne's avatar
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shadorne
7,477 posts
 
I did go to see Indiana Jones this weekend and it was a very clean horn system without harsh digital artifacts either. It was louder than I ever play my system these days and I walked out with no pain. I want those speakers I think. But those are way too big.

Cinemas can play very loud cleanly. Same as large pro speakers. I think this may be your problem - you are pushing very good little speakers to levels that they simply cannot handle (ringing, compression and distortion). No mystery here, most people would probably never crank it like you and would obviously not experience this problem with their home hi-fi.

I'd suggest a large three way or a large two way with a horn, preferably something used/recommened in pro audio. Remember that horns "honk" or ring when driven hard - something pro designers will take into account and therefore will go to extra lengths to ensure their horns still sound sweet at very loud levels. Same applies to box speakers - requirements for high SPL levels with low distortion will mean an entirely different type driver selections..."horses for courses" if you know what I mean.
rgs92
974 posts
 
To my ears, the best melding of liveness w/o harshness on
even the worst compressed popular-music digital recordings
was accomplished by my former Apogee Stages.
kijanki's avatar
kijanki
4,428 posts
 
Tweeter harshness at high level is related to few things in my opinion:
- Tweeter distortion. Some tweeters like Morel Supreme use underhung motor to keep it very linear even at very high power.
- Loudness effect of tweeter's capacitor
- Room amplification (needs more absorption)
- Harsh electronics/cables (less audible at lower sound levels)

Try Morel Supreme - it is soft dome but with a lot of dynamics. I don't see many Beryllium tweeters on the market but read review of Revel Studio2 and their Be tweeter is exceptional.
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