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Hear my Cartridges....🎶

Many Forums have a 'Show your Turntables' Thread or 'Show your Cartridges' Thread but that's just 'eye-candy'.... These days, it's possible to see and HEAR your turntables/arms and cartridges via YouTube videos.
Peter Breuninger does it on his AV Showrooms Site and Michael Fremer does it with high-res digital files made from his analogue front ends.
Now Fremer claims that the 'sound' on his high-res digital files captures the complex, ephemeral nuances and differences that he hears directly from the analogue equipment in his room.
That may well be....when he plays it through the rest of his high-end setup 😎
But when I play his files through my humble iMac speakers or even worse.....my iPad speakers.....they sound no more convincing than the YouTube videos produced by Breuninger.
Of course YouTube videos struggle to capture 'soundstage' (side to side and front to back) and obviously can't reproduce the effects of the lowest octaves out of subwoofers.....but.....they can sometimes give a reasonably accurate IMPRESSION of the overall sound of a system.

With that in mind.....see if any of you can distinguish the differences between some of my vintage (and modern) cartridges.
VICTOR X1
This cartridge is the pinnacle of the Victor MM designs and has a Shibata stylus on a beryllium cantilever. Almost impossible to find these days with its original Victor stylus assembly but if you are lucky enough to do so.....be prepared to pay over US$1000.....🤪
VICTOR 4MD-X1
This cartridge is down the ladder from the X1 but still has a Shibata stylus (don't know if the cantilever is beryllium?)
This cartridge was designed for 4-Channel reproduction and so has a wide frequency response 10Hz-60KHz.
Easier to find than the X1 but a lot cheaper (I got this one for US$130).
AUDIO TECHNICA AT ML180 OCC
Top of the line MM cartridge from Audio Technica with Microline Stylus on Gold-Plated Boron Tube cantilever.
Expensive if you can find one....think US$1000.

I will be interested if people can hear any differences in these three vintage MM cartridges....
Then I might post some vintage MMs against vintage and MODERN LOMC cartridges.....🤗
128x128halcro
halcro's avatar
halcro OP
2,664 posts
 
Thanks for the kind words Bydlo 😃
I appreciate hearing that some folks are finding this Thread informative...

Wow...an EMT 930 and FR-64S with Silver Wiring 🤩
You're really 'cooking with gas'...🔥
I also have the FR-64S with 'Silver Inside Leads' and the LDR sounds very happy with them.
The ORSONIC HEADSHELL however....is a different 'kettle of fish'.
I tried many cartridges on mine before selling it, as I could physically see the headshell twisting and contorting whilst playing heavy modulated passages.
Contrary to the commonly propagated claim, that the FR-S3 is too heavy....I have found this to be an AUDIOPHILE MYTH, with my seven S3 SHELLS being the very best to use on, not only the FR-64S and FR-66S.....but also other arms, as demonstrated in the two previous 'Shootouts' in this Thread.

What amplifiers and speakers do own to go with your first-rate front end?
Regards
bydlo
142 posts
 
Hi @halcro & thank you for the kind words and explanations :)
It is interesting what you write about the Orsonic, here is a guy who measured a number of headshells and claims it is one of the most rigid:
http://korfaudio.com/blog51
While we are at vibrations, I have one somewhat non-orthodox comment regarding your DLR/88D/Palladian shootout: Your both TT's are very close to the speakers, making them potentially prone to strong structure and air borne vibrations. The Victor, carrying 88D in the test had a benefit of an active isolation platform (effectively cutting all vibs below at least 200Hz). The other TT, carrying DLR did not have that. What I can clearly hear from your videos (iphone+iphone earbuds) is that 88D is more transparent, open, and direct and DLR, however surprising, more recessed and somewhat muddier, less convincing. I've heard many times the effect of a proper suspension (have a small company doing that) and it is often quite similar to the 88D/DLR difference in your videos. So my suspicion is that some part of the DLR/88D difference re the transparency might be due to the lack of the suspension below the Raven (not to mention of course the difference between the TT's).
My 2c :)
Cheers, b
PS I listen on Stax headphones, mostly on O2MkI driven by Blue Hawaii SE amp.
noromance's avatar
noromance
9,988 posts
 
Ry Cooder sounded better on the Raven. The music was more coherent. The Victor was brighter but it was a mess.
Dire Straits however was the opposite. Dull and plodding on the Raven, lively and musical on the Victor. 
halcro's avatar
halcro OP
2,664 posts
 
Hi Bydlo,
I’ve subscribed to Korfaudio for a while so I’m aware of his results with the Orsonic headshell.....
It was this result in fact that caused me to doubt the ’science’ behind his methodology and testing procedures. Apart from the fact that his group of headshells are all aluminium and third-rate (no wood, plastic, carbon fibre, ceramic).... his TESTING PROCEDURE is suspect to say the least.
As he himself states....
Usually, an actual signal being picked up from a rotating LP is the best way to excite the resonances in the playback system. After all, it duplicates the real use scenario almost perfectly.
However, it is impossible to truly separate the headshell’s performance from that of a tonearm while the headshell remains attached.
So instead.....he clamps the headshell in a vise and strikes it with a HAMMER 😂!!!!!!
Enough said......

What I can clearly hear from your videos (iphone+iphone earbuds) is that 88D is more transparent, open, and direct and DLR, however surprising, more recessed and somewhat muddier, less convincing.
I agree with you 🤗
However, the differences are not caused by Airborne Sound Transmission (which can virtually be disregarded in the real world).
This can be proven by listening with headphones and comparing the sound with the speakers at different volume levels.
Structure-borne Sound Transmission is the single most damaging phenomenon to vinyl playback but suspended decks cannot protect against the 1-10 Hz Structure-Borne resonances.
I have listened to the LDR on all three tonearms around the DD Victor TT-101 and the ’sound’ in my room (and headphones) is similar to what you are hearing on the Raven.
Frogman however, and many other listeners to the videos, are quite impressed with the sound from the LDR 😃
bydlo
142 posts
 
Hi Halcro,
Thank you for your explanations. Contrary to you I feel quite ok with KorfAudio mesurement techniques. Impulse excitation is a completely standard method in vibroanalysis (the usual knuckle test is a simple version of it ;) That his results may not correlate with listening is another story of course. BTW, the weirdest hammers I’ve seen where in vibration labs - so called impact hammers with coax cable sticking out of them :) One of the basic tools.
Do I see correctly that you use Yamamoto ebony with LDR? There is another A’gon fellow reporting better results using LDR with Yamamoto than (the lighter) Orsonic:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/arche-headshell-with-london-reference-cartridge-fantastic-res...
Structure-borne Sound Transmission is the single most damaging phenomenon to vinyl playback but suspended decks cannot protect against the 1-10 Hz Structure-Borne resonances.
I’m sure your active Herzan or Accurion does :)
I have listened to the LDR on all three tonearms around the DD Victor TT-101 and the ’sound’ in my room (and headphones) is similar to what you are hearing on the Raven.
Frogman however, and many other listeners to the videos, are quite impressed with the sound from the LDR 😃

Ok, thank you, so the TT and suspension is not much of a factor here - seems 88D is just inherently more transparent than LDR. BTW, I am myself too quite impressed with LDR and considering it for my system is what has brought me here :) But that 88D is in your videos more impressive for my ears. If only I could get one..

Cheers,b
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