2. speakers
  3. 159915-139027

Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world

I'm still fairly new out here and am curious about this Swarm thing. I've never owned a subwoofer but I find reading about them--placement, room treatments, nodes, the crawl, etc--fascinating. I'm interested in the concept of the Swarm and the DEBRA systems, and I have a very specific question. The few times I've been in high-end, audiophile stores and asked about the concept of the Swarm, I've tended to get some eye-rolling. They're selling single or paired subwoofers that individually often cost more and sometimes much more than a quartet of inexpensive, modest subs. The same thing can be said for many speaker companies that make both speakers and subs; it's not like I see Vandersteen embracing the use of four Sub 3's. 

My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)

Now, one favor, respectfully: I understand the concept and don't need to be convinced of why it's great. That's all over literally every post on this forum that mentions the word "sub." I'm really interested in why, as far as I can tell, stores and speaker companies (and maybe most audiophile review sites?) mostly don't go for it--and why, for that matter, many audiophiles don't either (putting aside the obvious reason of room limits). Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm? 


northman
atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
11,844 posts
 
Rohloff 14-speed German Speedhub and Pinion 12-speed gearbox.....my Dura Ace have been absolutely reliable but man, those two internal hubs are sweet!
@mitch2 Try taking that Dura Ace on the Tour Divide Mountain Bike Route (google or search on Yourtube) and see how it holds up. If you are careful with it, it can do well, but if you ignore it, it will go away :)

So the reality is swarms almost never come up based on practicality vs performance
I think this might be the case for now. But as we are seeing, the question is coming up a lot more now than 10 years ago when Duke got his first Golden Ear Award (now there are three).  In terms of practical- the distributed bass array concept is **very** practical in the Audiokinesis embodiment, as the subs are built to be as small as possible (1 foot square by 2 feet) and to be placed inside the room boundary effect, which most subs are not (Duke told me that he often places the speaker on its side with the woofer facing the wall, an inch or two away). This allows them true 20Hz response. In a small room its fairly easy to place them and keep them innocuous. Bass traps are far less effective and a lot harder to hide!


In terms of performance they also shine as they are several times more effective than room treatment for dealing with pesky standing waves which rob you of bass at the listening chair- or give you a bass boom. You get much closer to simply flat response right to 20Hz anywhere in the room. Its highly unlikely that anyone with a single or dual sub system can say that although they may have what they experience as 'satisfying' bass. This means that the main speakers don't have to be very large (practicality- they only need go down to 70Hz or so) or hard to drive (practicality- now you don't need such a big amp) and yet no reason to take a back seat to anyone's system in terms of bandwidth and resolution (performance).
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,570 posts
 
Subwoofers are a hard sell to begin with never mind four. WAF, cost, wiring, etc. Hi Fi people have a bad impression of subwoofer because most setups are not great. The theater people don't care, They just want to feel their seat shaking.

 bdp24, dipole subwoofers are a bad joke. You are right that sound travels at about 1 foot/msec. If you place the subwoofer a certain distance from a wall the reflected sound will only be exactly in phase at one frequency. Everywhere else will be out of phase creating even more interference patterns. It is just a cheap easy way to make a defective subwoofer.

For point source systems the swarm concept is ideal as long as the crossover point is below 100 Hz preferably 80 Hz. The swarm limits room interaction giving you the same volume throughout the room. With a single subwoofer the volume can change 10 db in only 3 feet! Here great bass, there nothing.

For linear arrays or line sources the situation changes and depends on the type of driver used. In order to radiate power the way a line source does you have to create a subwoofer linear array which involves placing subwoofers at intervals across a wall into corners. ESLs do better with higher cross over points 120-125 Hz. This stops the diaphragm from taking long excursions and limits distortion. For other Line sources a lower crossover between 80 and 100 Hz will do fine.

In all cases digital bass management is handily the best way to integrate a subwoofer system.   

audiokinesis
2,743 posts
 
Cleeds wrote:  "No, it’s not a straw man argument at all, because some of these "swarm" advocates have argued just that, and have done so repeatedly. Here’s one just from this thread..."   

As far as I can tell, Erik's complaint arises entirely from his personality conflict with ONE person, millercarbon.  

To the best of my knowledge Erik has yet to attack the merits of the distributed multisub concept directly, instead putting words into the mouths of its advocates and calling them "cultists", skirting Audiogon's rules by doing so in a blog post that he routinely links to.  

Duke
audiokinesis
2,743 posts
 
Teo audio wrote:

" First, Fix the room.

Fix the room
Fix the room
Fix the room
Fix the room.

Can’t say it enough times.

Fix the room."

For some highly experienced perspective, I invite you to click on the link below.

Once you get past the ad, listen for about 30 seconds from where it’s cued up. Matthew Poes is speaking, and he is a professional acoustician. His JOB is "Fix the room". He gets PAID to "Fix the room." He DOES NOT get paid to sell or promote subwoofers, whether singly or in multiples:

https://youtu.be/shHY7EHY4MA?t=2257


Teo, I’m not saying that YOU are not highly experienced, nor that room treatment isn’t extremely beneficial. Nor am I saying that it’s either/or. BUT in the subwoofer region "Fix the room" is much easier said than done, and a distributed multi-sub system apparently has considerable merit. Acoustician Matthew Poes uses stronger language than that.


Duke

millercarbon's avatar
millercarbon
12,531 posts
 
atmasphere nailed it. But at this point anyone shouting fix the room or ya need bass "management" (whatever that is) is simply not paying attention. Its like there's still guys saying cables are tone controls, fuses don't make any difference, etc. Its not just a river in Egypt, guys. 

But we know, the OP said we know, we aren't looking for that. What we're looking for is why sellers keep pushing the same old same old when we all know it doesn't work. And I've given one answer. But there's another even worse one: Buyers get the sellers they deserve. 

Anyone wondering why sellers aren't working harder to inform and educate and sell what actually works need look no further than this thread. Because here we have a whole bunch of supposedly dedicated audiophiles presented with the most iron clad fool-proof solution in all of audio, and most of them are like "lalalalala I don't hear you fix the room lalalala bass management lalalalal REL... I'm not listening."  

Irrefutable evidence, meet immovable opinion. That's why they aren't selling what actually works. Its just too darn hard getting audiophiles to actually think and try something new. 

More to discover