Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world

Subwoofers are a hard sell to begin with never mind four. WAF, cost, wiring, etc. Hi Fi people have a bad impression of subwoofer because most setups are not great. The theater people don't care, They just want to feel their seat shaking.

 bdp24, dipole subwoofers are a bad joke. You are right that sound travels at about 1 foot/msec. If you place the subwoofer a certain distance from a wall the reflected sound will only be exactly in phase at one frequency. Everywhere else will be out of phase creating even more interference patterns. It is just a cheap easy way to make a defective subwoofer.

For point source systems the swarm concept is ideal as long as the crossover point is below 100 Hz preferably 80 Hz. The swarm limits room interaction giving you the same volume throughout the room. With a single subwoofer the volume can change 10 db in only 3 feet! Here great bass, there nothing.

For linear arrays or line sources the situation changes and depends on the type of driver used. In order to radiate power the way a line source does you have to create a subwoofer linear array which involves placing subwoofers at intervals across a wall into corners. ESLs do better with higher cross over points 120-125 Hz. This stops the diaphragm from taking long excursions and limits distortion. For other Line sources a lower crossover between 80 and 100 Hz will do fine.

In all cases digital bass management is handily the best way to integrate a subwoofer system.   

Cleeds wrote:  "No, it’s not a straw man argument at all, because some of these "swarm" advocates have argued just that, and have done so repeatedly. Here’s one just from this thread..."   

As far as I can tell, Erik's complaint arises entirely from his personality conflict with ONE person, millercarbon.  

To the best of my knowledge Erik has yet to attack the merits of the distributed multisub concept directly, instead putting words into the mouths of its advocates and calling them "cultists", skirting Audiogon's rules by doing so in a blog post that he routinely links to.  

Duke

Teo audio wrote:

" First, Fix the room.

Fix the room
Fix the room
Fix the room
Fix the room.

Can’t say it enough times.

Fix the room."

For some highly experienced perspective, I invite you to click on the link below.

Once you get past the ad, listen for about 30 seconds from where it’s cued up. Matthew Poes is speaking, and he is a professional acoustician. His JOB is "Fix the room". He gets PAID to "Fix the room." He DOES NOT get paid to sell or promote subwoofers, whether singly or in multiples:

https://youtu.be/shHY7EHY4MA?t=2257

Teo, I’m not saying that YOU are not highly experienced, nor that room treatment isn’t extremely beneficial. Nor am I saying that it’s either/or. BUT in the subwoofer region "Fix the room" is much easier said than done, and a distributed multi-sub system apparently has considerable merit. Acoustician Matthew Poes uses stronger language than that.

Duke

atmasphere nailed it. But at this point anyone shouting fix the room or ya need bass "management" (whatever that is) is simply not paying attention. Its like there's still guys saying cables are tone controls, fuses don't make any difference, etc. Its not just a river in Egypt, guys. 

But we know, the OP said we know, we aren't looking for that. What we're looking for is why sellers keep pushing the same old same old when we all know it doesn't work. And I've given one answer. But there's another even worse one: Buyers get the sellers they deserve. 

Anyone wondering why sellers aren't working harder to inform and educate and sell what actually works need look no further than this thread. Because here we have a whole bunch of supposedly dedicated audiophiles presented with the most iron clad fool-proof solution in all of audio, and most of them are like "lalalalala I don't hear you fix the room lalalala bass management lalalalal REL... I'm not listening."  

Irrefutable evidence, meet immovable opinion. That's why they aren't selling what actually works. Its just too darn hard getting audiophiles to actually think and try something new. 

northman:" My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)"

   Hello northman,

     I understand you're confusion, hesitancy and numerous good questions. When I initially learned of the 4-sub distributed bass array concept about 6 yrs ago through reading about the results of research on the use of multiple subs by Earl Geddes, Floyd Toole and Todd Welti, my thoughts were much the same as yours. 
     I actually learned about the effectiveness of the 4-sub DBA concept prior to discovering that Audio Kinesis offered two very similar, complete kit versions of the concept in their Swarm and Debra products for $2,800 at that time ( I think it's currently priced at slightly more). 
     In fact, I was initially planning on buying a pair of JL Audio F113 and a pair of F110 subs to try out this concept, for a total price of $15,000, before learning of the AK Swarm and Debra at considerably less.  Of course, saving so much money was my main incentive but AK's offer, of a free in-home 30 day trial period, made my decision to buy the Debra a real no-brainer bass bargain buy.
     When I first experienced the bass performance of my AK Debra 4-sub DBA in my system and room a little over 5 yrs ago, I felt like I was being let in on a big home audio secret and like I won the bass performance lotto.  I remember thinking: Why had it taken me so long to learn of this excellent bass solution concept and product? 
     Why wasn't this concept more widely discussed and utilized, especially by members of a high-end audio site like Audiogon?
      I know my very positive and early experiences listening to the 4-sub Debra DBA, which has not diminished in the last 5+ years, has caused me to be a very enthusiastic supporter of this concept and to often attempt to spread the word on its remarkable effectiveness on this forum ever since.  I don't apologize for this, realize Duke/audiokinesis remains the foremost authority on the swarm/DBA concept on this forum and  believe the increased discussions on this forum about this concept and multiple subs in general are beneficial to all.
    And you asked:" My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing?
     I think many high-end stores do embrace the concept of multiple inexpensive subs, but I also think millercarbon was correct about money and profit margins and that dealers more likely embrace the concept of 
one expensive sub and really adore the concept of multiple expensive subs.  Hsw had a good point about REL and other sub companies starting to endorse the concept of multiple subs or stacks, too.  It's not  hard to figure out why, right?

     You also asked: "Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get .. the swarm? "
     If someone chooses to use a single sub, no matter its size, brand, quality or cost, rather than at least a pair of good quality subs, IMHO, they're most likely doing so due to a lack of knowledge and experience.  There's also the possibility that they're just blindly accepting some bad,  but obviously trusted, advice.  I think we'd probably learn more on why by listening to their answers to this question.
      I can state with certainty, based on personal knowledge and experience, that 2 subs will perform about twice as well as a single sub and that 4 subs will perform about twice as well as a pair of subs. I also believe, however, that you shouldn't take my word for anything I've stated on this post. I think we all generally learn the most and best through personal experience. 
     My shared Home Audio Deep Thought for the Day is that much personal audio knowledge gained is less about absolute truths and more about personal, subjective preferences.

Best of wishes to you grasshopper,
Tim