2. speakers
  3. 159915-139027

Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world

I'm still fairly new out here and am curious about this Swarm thing. I've never owned a subwoofer but I find reading about them--placement, room treatments, nodes, the crawl, etc--fascinating. I'm interested in the concept of the Swarm and the DEBRA systems, and I have a very specific question. The few times I've been in high-end, audiophile stores and asked about the concept of the Swarm, I've tended to get some eye-rolling. They're selling single or paired subwoofers that individually often cost more and sometimes much more than a quartet of inexpensive, modest subs. The same thing can be said for many speaker companies that make both speakers and subs; it's not like I see Vandersteen embracing the use of four Sub 3's. 

My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)

Now, one favor, respectfully: I understand the concept and don't need to be convinced of why it's great. That's all over literally every post on this forum that mentions the word "sub." I'm really interested in why, as far as I can tell, stores and speaker companies (and maybe most audiophile review sites?) mostly don't go for it--and why, for that matter, many audiophiles don't either (putting aside the obvious reason of room limits). Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm? 


northman
phusis's avatar
phusis
1,219 posts
 
Mr. Karsten --

One obvious advantage is that with four subs for a given volume as opposed to two, each driver will have less excursion.

All things being equal, yes, but my advocacy with pairs of subs (or even more of them) is using very large subs - i.e.: no less than 15" drivers for horns and +18" multiples for direct radiator designs, in either case dictating very large enclosures. Initially, before deciding on a pair of 15"-loaded tapped horn subs, I did consider 4 smaller (but not ’small’ by any means) tapped horns with 10" drivers for a DBA set-up, but different circumstances (like lack of availability of proper drivers for the given TH design) had me choose my current 2 x 20 cubic feet TH configuration, with the option to build two more of them in a future scenario - crazy it may seem; remember, a 15" tapped horn loaded sub roughly translates into something like 2 x 18" direct radiators, and with just two such subs the driver cones rarely get to move more than a few mm’s even at close to war volume. In fact 2 x 18" units in a DR design move visible more than a single 15" in a tapped horn for a perceived similar SPL, and less cone movement for a given SPL is what we want. I guess what I’m saying is that with bass capacity of this magnitude even pairs will give the advantage of prodigious headroom.
veerossi
174 posts
 
@audiokinesis 
Hi Duke, I finally got to see what you look like in a YouTube video for RMAF from some years ago. Its clear you are very passionate and fascinated about what you do. I enjoyed watching you speak. 
Im enjoying your setup and I’m hoping you might be able to help with my questions:

Using your setup with 2 SA1000 sub amps instead of the standard 1 amp, can you please explain how to set phasing and provide an explanation of the theory behind it? Should  all 4 of the sub satellites be in phase?
Since I’m using 2 amps (instead of the standard 1amp setup) Is it beneficial to wire a front left sub to the right rear side amplifier and a right and a right rear sub wired to the front left? Or maybe have just one of the subs out of phase?

When dialed-in correctly can this phasing affect the width and height of the soundstage?

When treating a room which has your sub setup, does it need the same amount and types of room treatment as a room using 1 or 2 subs?

Is it advisable to use something other than the standard sub enclosure rubber feet in rooms with hardwood floor on a raised foundation, or best to leave them as is?

Thanks!
Mike
luisma31
516 posts
 
I thought we were all familiar with Duke, no need to look for him on Youtube
You can see him here asking Bruce Willis if he wants to buy 4 or 6 subs.

https://filmdaily.co/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/ianholm-07.jpg
Full disclosure I am a happy owner of Duke's DBA (swarm) and his Azel speakers and in my case there was no need to use the gun, he just played a few tracks at RMAF98 and that convinced me.


stringreen's avatar
stringreen
6,480 posts
 
Vandersteen does use this method....but really expensive. 
jfine
1 posts
 
my .02

I've tried JBL 2245H 18" drivers, in B460 cabinets, 2 of em, using active xover and class d crowns, then used those drivers in another box configuration along with a pair of 2235H 15" drivers, on and on, etc., and sure the bass goes low, and hard if need be, but just did not integrate smoothly. I have an average sized room not a huge rec room. Great for the earthquake show though. I've also heard dual REL's behind the mains and it seemed to me it's just a pressurizing effect really. Room treatments for me are not effective (much) below about ~100hz, and yes it was thick, but the low end started to sound dry or uninteresting, and there's still the standing wave peak null issue, no matter what I did, which I think also affected the mains full range, just my theory. But the DBA approach solved those issues for me, and I'm still tweaking it but at least it's working. BTW I don't sit and listen. I need a huge sweet spot.
More to discover