I agree Rebbi that you should "stay put" unless given the opportunity to listen to another speaker without financial committment. All I can say is that the longer I live with the DeCapos the more I enjoy them. They are a VERY refined musically involving monitor. All this talk about how well the DeCapo and Kit 1 work together makes me want to challenge my suspicions, primarily that the Kit doesn't have enough gas for large scale dynamic music. I would like to be wrong. It's hard to overlook the enthusiasm of users of low powered SET amps and these speakers. |
Agree totally with Atmasphere, if you REALLY want to hear what those SETs can do, go with higher efficiency, particularly if you have wide musical tastes. I'm sure they sound great for certain music, in specific rooms at moderate levels. Is anyone listening to music beyond small scale with these amps? I really am curious because the general discussion seems to be around the quality of the sound with moderately efficient speakers, not truly high efficiency speakers. Just something to seriously consider Rebbi moving forward since you have made the committment to the amp.
I would bet serious money that most of the long time users, those who can't live without the enticing purity and tonal qualities found in these amps will encourage you more in that direction. Of course in the end the only way of knowing what works for you is listening to as many speakers as possible without making a committment to something that may end up being less than desired in the long run. On the other hand that is part of what makes this hobby so enjoyable and at times frustrating, finding the ideal we each seek. Read the writing on the wall, particularly the comments from those with experience. |
Thats fair enough Charles, if the case. I'm not questioning anything other than the fact that the Decapo speakers, which Rebbi obviously loves were not sufficient enough, or maybe, lets just explore this further to see what might be possible. I agree, there is no ideal amplifier BUT if one is committed to an SET amplifier the question might be, what is the ideal speaker choice for ALL the music I prefer listening to, what would take? Shouldn't that be a legitimate consideration or point to pose?
Big band is not orchestral/large scale music Charles and much less taxing on an amplifier than large scale. So far as SET owners enjoying a large spectrum of music I would only ASK what are the speakers they are using with the SET and what are their listening choices? Really Charles, I'm not debating the merits of SETs with a given speaker only that those reading THIS thread shoule be well aware of limitations depending on their musical choices. It just hasn't been discussed enough and for an individual that may be influenced by the merits of SET amplifiers a worthy point. One thing I always love in this hobby is folks with passion and this most certainly includes you Charles, I would LOVE to hear your set-up, I'm sure it's quite special! |
Thank you everyone for your responses, I feel it is worthwhile information to lurkers viewing this thread with interest.
Rob your comments regarding the Decapos sounding thin and lean "yelping down the street" (LOL) kind of underscores MY point. If everyone recalls very early on when Rebbi asked the original question about "best value in SETs" this very point was questioned with some of the manufacturers' claiming "no problemo", others questioning whether 92 db is enough for a SET amplifier for all types of music. I WILL say this Rob, I don't know if you have listened to the Decapos with a good tube PP amp but I can attest they are anything but lean and can throw a HUGE soundstage, up, out and back, for those interested. I've listened to these speakers to date with 5 different amplifiers including a First Watt SE M2 but not an SET where my opinion might be valued less than someone that HAS listened first hand which is fair enough.
The Tekton/Decapo comparsion is a perfect example of how a speaker with higher efficiency is better suited and in direct comparison with a speaker with less efficiency gives a seemingly negative impression to you Rob. Your amp is different than Rebbi's but the power is similar enough. The Kit 1/Decapo combo may have been less objectionable to him but still, not enough for him to keep them, "lets explore further options". So if one is going to explore the options, what might be the BEST option? Good enough for me is not necessarily good enough for someone else. The question has hardly been put to bed as far as I'm concerned, only for some it is quite satisfactory. I have listened to numerous SETs over the years the most recent a pair of 7 watt DHT 300b sets with a 95 db speakers which I've listened to numerous times over the past 4-5 years in different rooms as well. Another I'm quite familiar with are different, integrated stereo 845s in parallel producing a whopping 35 watts with a diy compression driver in a very large transmission line enclosure! In both cases I hear limitations in large scale music, at least I DO. The dynamics on transients are just not the same with less power IME, this is where I HEAR the limitations first, things just sort of level out. The clipping characteristics on these amps are quite benign so I don't hear anything objectionable, just a ceiling.
Roxy, the speakers you are using are getting closer to the type of efficiency required that is going to minimize constraints on the music offered by an SET/DHT 8 watt amplifiers, IME.
It appears that what may be good enough for one listener may not be enough for another, at least speaking for myself. If someone is influenced to try the SET route it is important to pay close attention to all considerations MOST IMPORTANTLY, the speaker used! The higher the efficiency, the greater chance of long term success. There is NO substitute than listening first hand. |
Hey Map, I haven't heard the amp in question, just speaking generally based on my experiences. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against ss, there are some gems out there, most of those a bit more than I would pay. The point is that tubes render different characteristics, distortions if you will, that are more pleasing to some of us plus that "presence" thing that gives it more of a real feel deal. Your amp might be great and it might work for someone(s). I just doubt it would for the SET crowd. The guys I know in the SET camp are very dedicated and committed, different strokes and whatever works. |
"Tubegroover, Ralph and others,I understand that you are drawn to something else and move in a different direction."
While we may be drawn in different directions Charles, I do believe our goals are essentially the same. I, like you and Rob believe that correct tone is the most important factor in realizing long term enjoyment and reduces the encroachment of fatigue more than any other factor, at least to me. If tone, timbre and pitch is off just a bit, very little else matters. Tone, energy (is this pratt, toe-tapping that is referred to?) realistic transients, dynamic contrasts and low level musical information are some of the things that make music more real to me. What contributes to great tone the question might be? I have come to the conclusion that correct tone is directly attributable to the reduction in distortion, the less the distortion in the system, the better the resolution and tone. The wild card is that tube amplifiers seem to get this more right than SS, at least most I've listened to, "anyone got a recommendation of a ss amp that sounds like tubes" never the reverse. Something I always marvel at is listening to a pair of well set-up Quad speakers, how natural and convincing they are in getting tone and timbre right, more right than anything I've personally listened to. I don't and wouldn't own them because they have other limitations I personally can't live with.
So far as SETs are concerned, I DO agree with you guys! We're not in disagreement on any point other than that IME they require very efficient speakers to reduce the distortion characteristics that would make them more appealing to ME and quite possibly others for the wide genres of musical tastes I and others might have.
Please don't take offense. I've made the points of my comments clear. There is nothing wrong with SETs, they have magical qualities, just to others watching which I include myself, there may be more restrictions using these amps because of their power limits so if you take that path you have PLENTY of information above to use as a guide going forward. |
"Also, it is my experience that the deCapos, for all their virtues, don't handle the lower octaves all that well"
Out of curiosity Brownsfan, exactly which amplifiers have you listened to with the Decapos? My experience DOES NOT mirror yours at all with all the amps I've tried them with. Maybe you are using both the Dynamo and Franks as a reference and in comparison with the higher efficient Coincident monitors you are using? In which case I wouldn't at all be surprised. My room has been tuned with a spectrum analyzer to maximize the placement of my Decapos. The bass is very defined and clearly resolved, remarkable for a monitor on some program material. |
"I had always thought of my self as a "nuance" guy more than a "dynamics" guy, but I found the latter surprisingly compelling, which is why one or another Tekton model is still on my list of possibilities."
I want both! Great post and insight as always Rebbi! |
Oh I don't think you're disparaging the Decapos at all Brownsfan, I was just curious is all as our results are quite different.
Smctique my listening room is 18X20X10 opening to an adjacent 8X12X10 area so it is quite good, if not for that open area I think I would have more problems unless I listened strictly nearfield. The speakers are placed approximately 42" from the front wall to the front of the speaker approximately 6' apart at present. Tube traps are in the corners on the front wall, this eliminated an 80 hz peak and smoothed out the FR at the listening position. I am changing things around so I can further experiment with placement which is CRITICAL with these speakers as I've discovered, a 1/4" here or there on toe in can make changes that can be clearly heard. When dialed in they just snap into focus. I am also using some home brewed traps behind the speaker as I was getting a bit of boom when I first installed them. This has taken care of that issue.
The bass on all the amps I've used in house but not all I've heard with the DeCapos include the First Watt, Berning Zh270, Quicksilver Silver 88 w/kt150 outputs and my current fav with these speakers, my pair of recently restored McIntosh MC-60 amps which I have completely retubed. All the amps present bass in a different way with the speakers but the underlying fact is that the bass is very controlled and resolved with all. Room placement with all monitors in particular and speakers in general is critical but maybe just a bit more with these monitors. My dealer really emphasized this point to me when I purchased them and have I found it to be so true!
The points above I make ONLY to absolve some of the comments made above regarding them being used with low/powered SET amplifiers. I don't care for them with the ss amps I've heard them paired with other than the First Watt which is quite nice. |
"These might appeal to SET lovers as an alternative SS design with tube amp sound in mind."
I doubt that Mapman. The First Watt M2 a SE (Class A) zero feedback design as an example is a very fine amplifier and as much as I enjoy it there ARE differences with good tube designs that, to me at least, can't be compromised and I'm NOT talking about tube rolling. It might be a reasonable alternative for some but I sincerely doubt it would be to any one that has listened for extended years to tube designs except for those that have become fatigued dealing with the maintenance issues and are looking for a SS alternative, "anyone know of a ss amp that sounds like tubes"?. I certainly haven't heard one that I could say I can live with long term, YET! Now when you are talking about guys that are experienced, long time SET users, it's probably a non starter, just a hunch. |
Hey Map those MHDT units are musical if not the last word in detail, they get tone right. Better than the other way around. The Havana was my favorite before I purchased a Modwright Oppo, it was just so enjoyable and engaging contrary to some of the others with greater detail maybe but always something distracting and ultimately irritating, one of them became unlistenable. I've been out of the budget DAC game for a few years so don't have a clue as to how things have changed, I expect quite a bit but really it always comes down to how a given component is going to work in a given set-up, there are seemingly few absolutes. |
Thanks Charles for your kind words. That's just it Charles! I haven't yet I've heard some wonderful SS systems. Initially they can sound great but as I listen long enough there always seems to be something missing that causes me to veer away from the engagement in the music, the purpose of listening in the first place. I recently picked up a used tube CJ vintage preamp at an audio meeting. The owner recently passed away and a lot of his gear and a wonderful collection of mostly classical lps was being sold. This piece was one I had lusted after back in the day but I didn't have 3k to blow on a preamp at the time, around 1989, so here was my chance.
The funny thing is that along with my vintage amplifier this set-up just MAKES MUSIC! One guy at the meeting was dismissive of my purchase, Oh yeah, I had a few of those back in the day kind of not dark but carmel colored. Yeah, I guess that's kind of right but for all the imperfections there is that musical rightness, presence and tone that is just there and sound more like music to me, what I HEAR in live music and whatever is missing, often a lot of spurious irrelevant detail that doesn't contribute to the music itself, I can easily live without. |
Also Charles, forgot to mention, he was also an SET guy, he had a nice pair of Antique 845 monos. I remember not too far back sending me an email about a particular SET DHT amp for sale on Audiogon to try with the Decapos. I didn't because I didn't think they had enough juice to drive them. |
"The only thing is that they do not go as loud as completely effortlessly as my 500 w/ch Bel Canto amps, but then a gain few amps do."
If they are as you describe them Mapman I would only ask WHY are you selling them. I don't dispute a word you say, your comments are quite compelling BUT what's wrong with them other than they don't play LOUD enough? The whole raison d'être for us audiophiles is getting gear that sound right to each of us. If this is as you say I would only ask, besides "not enough power" any other reason why you would want to sell it, I wouldn't. I'm not trying to be flip but you sure have me curious. |
My condolences and may peace be with you and your loved ones during this time of loss. |
