George I don’t know why you’re getting your panties all bunched up. Machina Dynamica's been numero uno here for like forever. Better take two placebos and see me in the morning.
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atmasphere
geoffkait:My post relates to the proposition that the electromagnetic wave that is the audio signal **in** copper wire or any conductor is comprised of photons, as are all electromagnetic waves.
"For a given value of ’in’ I suppose increases or decreases the number of words in your mouth, apparently.
Emphasis added."
whatev
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mihorn wrote,
"One has to listen 10~20 seconds (depends on the length of cable) for signal to find the way."
whoa! what! hey! did you forget to put a smiley face?
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The problem is that wire is directional. All wire, wire in fuses, wire in interconnects, speaker cables, internal wiring in electronics and speakers, the wire in capacitors. That's why interconnects that are not shielded sometimes have arrow, you know like Anti Cables and others. So, here's the real problem, those cables and interconnects that are shielded and have arrows to indictate the direction the cable should be connected because of the shield may or may not consider the direction of the wire itself. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the wire in shielded cable should also be considered when marking the cables for direction with arrows. The sound would suffer somewhat if the wire itself was in the wrong direction even shield was in the right direction.
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atmasphere
@jea48 so-- if the electrons flow easier one way then the other (a reasonable interpretation of the first paragraph), what happens? Do they not all make it back on the return cycle.
to which atmasphere replied,
"Obviously the answer is ’No.’, as an excess of electrons would occur at the receiving end, which would mean that there would be a negative DC voltage generated. Since that doesn’t happen, we can assume with a great degree of accuracy that the electrons are in fact flowing either way with equal ease."
In any case electrons - unlike the audio signal - are not flowing very rapidly. The velocity of electons in copper wire is what, about a meter an hour?
Then atmasphere continued,
"Interconnect cables are not diodes. The reason they might be directional has to do with how the shield is arranged. Usually you want the shield grounded at the source only. While its not as good as balanced operation for low noise, its better than just a regular shield with single conductor inside."
That's only part-true. The wire itself is directional so even cables without shields are obviously directional. Did my previous post fall on deaf ears? Hel-loo!
Finally atmasphere said,
"So I think we can consider the quote from herman to be debunked."
Or not.
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to make things even more confusing, consider the following. First, the audio signal is not the electrons. The audio signal can’t be the electrons because the audio signal moves too fast, near light speed in wire, whereas electrons only move very very slowly in wire - a meter per hour. Second, the electrons cannot travel at light speed under any circumstances or anywhere near light speed because of their mass, such as it is. Their mass prevents them from ever approaching light speed. In fact, we know there is actually only ONE thing that can travel at light speed (in a vacuum) and near light speed in metal conductors and it’s the VERY THING that the audio signal, the electromagnetic wave, comprises. But if it’s not electrons. what is it?!
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georgelofi
"There was only one wire developed years ago 80’s for audio that I believe was directional. That was Linear Crystal Oxygen Free (LC-OFC) speaker wire from Audio Technica, it was heated up to such a degree it crystalized when it was drawn."
Getting back down to reality for just a second there waso actually only ONE wire that was NON-DIRECTIONAL - the CARBON wire, Van den Hul’s metal-free The First. The reason carbon wire, i.e., non metal wire, is non-directional is because it is amorphous, whereas ALL metal conductors are by their very nature crystal structures, All metals are crystal structures, and in their free state the crystal structure is symmetrical. but when metal is bent, rolled, hammered or drawn the symmetrical crystal structure of the material is deformed. In reality, a single crystal wire would actually minimize or eliminate the "directionality" from occuring since it’s the *deformation* of the symmetrical crystal structure that causes the directionality in the first place. Van den Hul also produced single crystal wire; I owned single crystal tonearm wire way back when.
geoff kait
machina dynamica
no goats no glory
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OK, time to stop messing around and pull in the big guns. what follows is what Mr. Low owner of Audioquest Cables says about wire directionality.
our products, perhaps you’ve wondered what this “directionality” thing is all about. Maybe you’ve even made the incorrect assumption that it’s the analog or digital signal that’s directional.
There is the widely accepted version of directionality: In most audio-grade shielded interconnects, as compared to standard coax, negative has its own internal conductor and the metal shield is attached to ground at only one end, thus defining the cable’s directionality. Many cable manufacturers end their exploration of directionality there, going only as far as to mark their cables for directionality based on the relationship of shield to ground, but altogether neglecting conductor directionality. Because we believe in directing noise to where it can do the least harm, we, too, believe in the advantages of controlling for the attachment of the shield. In fact, long before we controlled for conductor directionality, AudioQuest interconnects were also controlled for direction based on the relationship of shield to ground.
The definitive empirical evidence of directionality demands seeking a scientific explanation. What is the technical explanation for directionality?
Over the years, our understanding of conductor directionality and its effect on audio performance has steadily evolved, growing stronger and more complete. While we’ve always been keenly aware that directionality plays a significant role in the overall sound of any hi-fi system, we couldn’t completely explain it. This was okay: We trust our own ears and encourage listeners to do the same. The test is easy enough: Simply listen, then reverse the direction of the cable, and listen again.
In one direction, music will sound relatively flat and a little grainy, as though being forced through a screen door. In the opposite direction, the obstruction is removed and music will be communicated with a natural ease, depth, and an open invitation to pleasure. When presented with a cable whose conductors have been controlled for the correct low-noise directionality, a listener feels a sense of comfort and relief: Ahh…Music!
geoff kait
machina dynamica
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georgelofi
Ralph, I tried to find the photo they had which seemed reasonable, but didn’t look really hard.
But the way they explained it in the pics was that normal OFC copper is just round copper molecules all touching and bunched like tiny marbles in a tube, (surface touching area between molecules is minimal)
Uh, the "cube" with copper atoms is a crystal lattice. They are not copper molecules although I did enjoy reading that.😬
have a nice day
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mapman
geoffkait@mapman, i suggest you get some Spock ears. you could probably use them.
to which Mapman responded,
"We all probably do actually.
I’d bet anything they would have a clear and huge effect on what anyone hears. Unless deaf to start with. Unlike orientation of copper crystals in wires. My dog told me so. For now I will merely just cup my hands behind my ears and enjoy. Try it you’ll like it."
Would you believe Spock ears was my very first product, but it was overcome by events. i wish i had some NOS I could send you. 😃
I actually don’t like hands behind the ears as it exaggerates certain frequencies in an unnatural manner but what’s intriguing is that you would assume I never heard of it. 😩
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If you’ve ever wondered about the arrows on AudioQuest cables, read any of our educational materials, or merely followed any of the online chatter regarding our products, perhaps you’ve wondered what this “directionality” thing is all about. Maybe you’ve even made the incorrect assumption that it’s the analog or digital signal that’s directional.
sorry my last post truncated the first paragraph of Audioquest's article on directionality... carry on.
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mapman, if i can be so bold I suggest you get a hold of some of those Spock Vulcan ear prosthetics. i suspect you probably need them.
have a nice day. 😁
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atmasphere
"I have to assume that Geoff used the quote above to make the point of the shield being the driver behind directionality in cables. If that is not the case and somehow Audioquest was trying to make a point about wire being direction and nothing else than this paragraph isn’t their best marketing. But that isn’t how it reads to me."
I wish i could say kudos to your detective work but alas, I’ve already explained all that as did Mr. Low from Audioquest. And you assume wrong. Remember, when you Ass-u-me something you make an ass out of me and Uma Thurman. 😬
Methinks there’s a good possibility you’ve psyched yourself out on this whole fuse and wire directionality thing. I for one don’t see what all the fuss is since any yutz with ears should be able hear the difference in direction of any fuse or any unshielded cable. You guys are making this much more difficult than it has to be, not that I mind. It’s kinda fun. 😃
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Jea48 wrote,
"The audio signal travels down the wire in the form of an electromagnetic wave from the source to the load."
Bingo! All the young dudes carry the news, the young dudes in this case being photons, not electrons. Yeah!
😃 |
atmasphere
@jetter Usually the shield is connected at both ends.
<facepalm>
Jea48 wrote,
"The audio signal travels down the wire in the form of an electromagnetic wave from the source to the load."
Bingo! All the young dudes carry the news, the young dudes in this case being photons, not electrons.
</facepalm>
hmmmm...I’m guess I’m thinking a little bit more of the image of the monkey contemplating the skull of Yorick. "Alas, poor Yorick..."
😬
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sorry to report, atmasphere, the dude from Audioquest was actually referring to folks like you who insist that any directionality in the sound is due to the shield and who keep insisting there is not such thing as wire directionality whether it be fuses, cables, interconnects what have you. Mr. Low, in fact, is quite outspoken in this regard. Maybe you better read the article again.
Let’s summarize, shall we? copper and any metal wire is direction, both in measurement and in listening. If there is a difference is sound for shielded cables of any type due only to the direction of the sheld the manufacturer of that cable would be well advised to consider the directionality of the conductor as well, you know, in order to acheive maximum results. What cable manufacturer - unless he's lived in a cave somewhere for the past 30 years -wouldn’t do that? By the same token, any cable manufacturer who doesnt employ cryogenic treatment is living in the eighties. Its really a question of staying competitive, at least for the high end. I actually don’t care about mid fi particularly.
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atmasphere wrote,
"@jetter Usually the shield is connected at both ends."
Uh, I don’t think so. That was kind of the whole point of the Audioquest dude’s article on wire directionality. You know, the article you apparently mis-read. Besides, if a shield was connected at both ends of the cable you couldn’t really blame cable directionality on the shield, could you? Please don’t try to tell me it has something to do with the contact the male RCA connector makes with the female end.
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stanwal
Ask Pierre S. He spend hours arranging the orientation of his cables. It may as I have forgotten how it sounded like by the time he gets through. Just kidding Pierre
I stepped on one of Pierre's cables at the show and lived to tell about it. 😬
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timrhu
Who inspects the cable to ensure the crystals are properly aligned and then decides which way is best for optimum signal flow? And after this is determined, who, at the factory ensures the cable has the proper orientation?
Something smells fishy to me here.
the cable manufacturer listens to cables made with the first wire taken off a new large spool of wire to determine which direction sounds best. The rest is easy, no?
😃
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timrhu
@geoffkait
the cable manufacturer listens to cables made with the first wire taken off a new large spool of wire to determine which direction sounds best. The rest is easy, no?
"Something tells me you're just making stuff up here. I don't believe that for a second."
Would I kid you?
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helmingway
And now we have claims of photons travelling down pieces of copper. I guess that would be responsible for creating a truly holographic imaging experience. No wonder this topic always sparks controversy.
All electromagnetc waves are comprised of photons. I.e., not only is visible light on the electromagnetic spectrum made of photons, but also X- rays, gamma rays, HF radio waves, SHF radio waves - everything on the electromagnetic spectrum. Including audio signals. They’re all photons.
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mihorn wrote,
kraftsound
Linn K20 / Naim Naca 4 speaker cables are directional due to a burn in process at the factory. If they are connected the other way around they will adapt to that and after a couple of weeks they will sound the same as before. There is a small audible difference.
"If this is true also for other cables there is no actual inherit preferred direction in the cables
As I mentioned in previous post, the direction of metal cable is physically made and the sound doesn't change with the length of time. I heard sounds of many 40-50 years old metal wires in vintage gears melts like butter (in sound) in 1~2 minutes."
HiFi Tuning of all people used to state that (their) fuses were not directional, that they break correctly no matter which direction they were inserted. Of course HIFi Tuning now admits they were incorrect and that their fuses are directional. Hence the diode symbol with the uh, arrow on their fuses today. Synergistic Reseach, in a similar vein, used to state that their fuses that were subject to one million volts ("quantum tunneling") would be not be directional, you know, due to the million volts. Now everyone and his brother knows that Synergistic Research fuses are dirctional, one assumes even Synergistic Research.
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2channel8
A lot of theorizing. Very little empirical reporting.
as fate would have it I wrote the first tests for the FAA to determine whether satellite communications delay would interfere with pilot to controller radio voice communication. Everyone and his brother knows voice (audio) signals over copper wire travel around 80% the speed of light which as everyone knows is 186,000 miles per second. There are other delays - i.e., through voice switches and other devices but the primary delay is the total up and down delay for a synchronous satellite at orbit of around 24,000 miles. Since the satellite delay is known to be 240 ms that means the velocity of the audio signal (voice) through free space is 186,000 miles per second. The speed of light. Now what is the only thing that can travel at the speed of light in free space? Answer at 11.
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audioquest trumps stealth. all cables are directional, y’all. there is no wiggle room in reality.
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geoffkait: Since the satellite delay is known to be 240 ms that means the velocity of the audio signal (voice) through free space is 186,000 miles per second. The speed of light. Now what is the only thing that can travel at the speed of light in free space?
to which atmasphere replied,
"Electrons flow back and forth in a wire. Its useful to examine the way this occurs by using the model of ball bearings in a hose. When you push one ball bearing into one end, instantaneously one leaves the hose at the other end. Electrons work the same way as they are easily exchanged in their respective orbits of adjacent atoms (in a material we call a ’conductor’).
Obviously you didn’t learn this when going to the two week NASA school."
Huh?! I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears my post went over your head. My post relates to the proposition that the electromagnetic wave that is the audio signal in copper wire or any conductor is comprised of photons, as are all electromagnetic waves. Besides, Electromagnetic waves in free space do not require electrons. How could they? it’s a vacuum. Hel-loo! BTW I was senior mathematician at NASA when you were still wearing bell bottoms.
have a nice day
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12-05-2016 4:01pm
Photons. Hmm. Maybe that was the mail order NASA school...
Actually, photons conducting in a wire is about as likely as you working at NASA which is to say neither happened.
No offense to you personally but you’re confused. I’m not saying that photons conduct at all. So don't put words in my mouth. If you can’t keep up with the conversation maybe you should consider sitting this one out.
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atmasphere
@jea48
“There it was, right in front of me in black and white! The current does not flow around a loop setting up a magnetic field as I had, along with countless other engineers, been taught in high school and university. It is the other way round. The electric current is but an artifact of a more fundamental entity.”
to which atmasphere replied,
"You can work that either way you want to- put the em field somehow in place and the current will flow in the wire, or put the current through the wire and the em field will be generated. Either way its a red herring and has nothing to do with directionality nor suggests a means for directionality."
Sorry to report you’re still confused. Current traveling down the wire generates a *magnetic field" - that’s the *induced magnetic field* and has absolutely nothing to do with either an em field or the *electromagnetic wave* that is the audio signal. The induced magnetic field is stationary, obeys the right hand rule, whereas the electromagnetic wave (audio signal) travels at near light speed, as I’ve described.
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sorry to say, Al, but I disagree with just about everything you just posted. oh, well...c'est la vie. specifically, as i just got through saying, the induced magnetic field is stationary whereas the electromagnetic field, you know, the thing comprised of photons, is light speed. atmasphere is mixed up and if you wish to defend him it's no skin off my nose.
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kraftsound wrote,
"I’m not saying that inherent directionality does not exist but until someone presents a double blind test along the lines of the test suggested above I’m very sceptical about it’s existence since it does not make any sense at all theoretically. Even if you turn the cable around the strands are still twisted the same way and every other factor also remains the same."
A double blind test is just one data point. so if the results are negative one cannot make generalities regarding directionality, i.e. wires or fuses are not directional. there are many reasons why a double blind test might fail, just like any test: e.g., operator error, system has at least one error preventling full resolution.
"Could it be that the extrusion process would impart an inherit direction? Not very likely since atoms are 100% symmetrical and identical and all impurities in the material are distributed completely at random. The whole concept of inherent directionality in cables just does not make any sense to me as a scientist and if it really does exist it must be possible to scientifically explain the reasons for it.
Can someone please do THAT? Not just present a lot of hocus-pocus statements that have no scientific relevance at all..."
The metal conductors are crystal structures, they are not amorphous. Atoms are arranged in crystal lattices, which are unique for each metal. All metals are crystals. directionality is produced by distortion of the original symmetrical crystal structure that exists after the molten metal is poured. hammering, rolling, drawing, bending - they all distort/deform the crystal structure. Drawing the wire through a die deforms the crystal structure such that the wire is made unsymmetrical and non-homogeneous, like the quills on a porcupine’s back. So, wire is INHERENTLY directional.
You can ignore impurities in the wire since we’re talking about metals that are 99.999999% pure in the case of copper.
Does that make any sense to you as a scientist?
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kraftsound
8 posts
12-06-2016 10:00am
+geoffkait Sure, extrusion does stretch the metal and as I wrote that may indeed be a factor that can explain inherent directionality. I can’t find any other…
I’m not talking about stretching. I'm talking about deformation of the crystal lattice structures as the wire goes through the die. Don’t put words in my mouth. Besides, stretching alone is a symmetrcial phenonemon and would not explain directionality.
then kraftsound wrote,
"But you are wrong in the statement that all metals are crystalline. They are NOT!"
Copper, silver and gold are comprised of crystal lattice structures. YOU are wrong!
Metals are in in their basic state polycrystalline, that is they consist of many small crystals "grains" with amorphous atoms in between them. There is a significant difference but that is besides the main point of our discussion.
You playing word games. pure metals and nearly pure metals comprise symmetrical lattice structures, as I already said. They are not amorphous. That is exactly the point of this discussion. Hel-looo!
then kraftsound wrote,
"What kind of test would be more accurate than a double blind test? If such a test can’t detect any directionality with some kind of consistency it simply does not exist but is only a figment of illusion. If it does exist then we have encountered a manufacturing problem with regards to the quality of the cable in question!"
as I already said whatever test you come up with is subject to the vagaries of the system used for the test and the hearing of the subject. i assume you would make a lousy test subject given your attitude. if a test is negative it actally means nothing. It’s only a data point. If many tests are positive you can throw out the negative ones, the outliers.
then kraftsound wrote,
"If extrusion does cause significant irregularities in the metal structure I would humbly like to suggest to any serious manufacturer who detects such effects to simply make up their cables with half of the strands in one direction and the other half in the other in order to eliminate this problem all together as directionality only can be classified as a manufacturing defect. All it takes is respooling half of the bobins containing the individual strands and that is easily done...
Uh, the irregularities cannot be avoided. How else would you suggest fabricating wire? a mold? Apparently only audiophiles are concerned about this issue. It’s not really a defect since performance of the wire, e.g. resistance, is almost identical in both directions. by the way I'm referring to solid core copper or silver, although the directionality would also be true for stranded as long as all of the strands are in the "same direction."
then kraftsound wrote,
"Maybe it’s only because I have used well made cables in this respect when testing reversing them that I have not detected any audible differences with regards to their orientation. That may, of course, be the case! No doubt about that..."
maybe your hearing is not what you think it is. or they may be a mistake on your system. Who knows? A great many audiophiles have heard directionality. you would be in the minority.
then kraftsound wrote,
"I’m, as I stated, not saying that inherent directionality in cables does not exist. I’m just trying to resolve the problem that many obviously have experienced when using poorly designed cables. In a well made cable any sort of directionality should NOT be detectable!"
Sorry to report all wires and all cables are directional.
"And, yes, I am a physicist as well as a professional sound engineer and techie so I’m only concerned with scientifically relevant issues…
And, yes, your comment make sense to me! :-)
I’m just trying to lift the discussion to a scientific level… :-)
I have just not simply yet encountered any such crappy cables..."
I don’t know why you keep implyng ths discussion is not at a scientific level. some of what you yourself have stated here is either misstatements or simply untrue.
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atmasphere
"we’re talking about metals that are 99.999999% (sic) pure in the case of copper.
This is a common myth! No copper produced for audiophile or other uses is better than 99.99%. Anyone telling you anything else is lying. The fact is that while copper can be made pretty pure (in which case its state looks more silvery than copper colored) but the simple process of extrusion with an insulation insures that 99.99% is the best you get. If you want proof just look at the color of the wire.
Further, oxygen-free copper was not developed for audiophiles. It was developed for alternators and generators for their brushes, because oxygen-free copper is more flexible. Once oxygen-free copper has been in the field for a few weeks, its purity is about the same as regular copper.
IOW the ’6 nines’ copper thing is a marketing myth. Anyone tells you they have that turn the other way and run as hard as you can."
I’m not referring to oxygen free copper, which is 3 or 4 nines copper. I’m referring to 6N copper, 99.9999% - not to mention the Japanese who have had 7N copper wire for many years. Hel-looo! Besides, why should I believe someone who doesn’t know the difference between a magnetic field and an electromagnetic wave?
even if you’re right (which i doubt) the purity of say 2 or 3 nines copper does not leave much room for impurities, at least not enough to produce directionality, which is what kraftsound was pushing in his previous post. Even if there were 5% impurities in audio wire which there’s obviously not, there’s no reason to think that the impurities would favor one direction over the other. If it doesn’t make sense it’s not true.
"You can tell by the color of the wire" funny
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jetter
"Geoff, above and in many discussions you have stated that the wire drawing process impacts the wire crystal structure making it inherently directional.
Assuming it does, I think the question is does this impacted crystal structure in some way make an audible sound difference when the wire is inserted into a system in one direction or the other?"
imo the answer is yes. whether the wire is the wire in a cable, in a transformer, wire in a fuse or capacitor or in the internal wiring in electronics or speaker. Thus when you reverse unshielded interconnects that are in all outward appearances symmetrical you should notice the sound change for the better or worse, depending on whetyer they were connected in the correct direction to begin with or not.
jetter also wrote,
"One might think that in order for it to make a difference, the signal, power, whatever, would need to flow differently depending on the direction of the crystal structure. This would imply that if the wire was inserted incorrectly from a directionality viewpoint, the crystals are impeding, or in my obviously non scientific terms ,snagging and impeding the signal or power compared to the correct direction and this somehow impacts the sound."
That’s right, imo. The wire is phyically asymmetrical, like the quills on the back of a porcupine. i would say this asymmetry causes distortion of the audio signal, even if the wire (fuse) is located where the power cord comes into the amplifier, even if the wire is located in an AC circuit. it is audible and measurable.
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