Is Direct Drive Really Better?

Marty - trend or no, superior technology or no, there will always be a response to a buzz. Audiophiles start talking about and yearning for DD's and idlers? One-man shop guys and DIY'ers getting good results on the cheap? Companies will never let that stand. Exisitng manufacturers or new ones (just wait) will leap into the fray with claims that THEY have the secret to unlocking the very best of whatever technology is currently sexy. Of course, as an example, only the finest titanium shafts turned on gold-plated lathes using ceramic tools whose paths are greased by the sweat of nubian maidens will do. And, by God, that costs money. Money they would just love to cleave from your wallet. Soon you have a 1200 in a $25,000 package. Just wait!

Oh, I've been saving their sweat in jars in anticipation of a future windfall. Such is the soundness of most all of my investment strategies...

Naw, I really could not care less which technology is used - only about what my ears ultimately hear.

You are on VA, too. Another person who uses a separate name? That's damn confusing, I say. :-) My name over there is 4yanx. You can call me 4yanx. :-)

David

Exactly the type of response which is routinely preyed upon...:-)

With high-end designers getting into the Lenco game, then expect to see rebuilt Lencos begin to appear at high-end audio shows, and perhaps one day, me along with them."

The ironic juxtaposition of high-end designers with you along side them notwithstanding, do you or does anyone think that high-end designers will be satisfied with trotting out rebuilt Lencos at high-end audio shows?! Please. While they may allow this initially as a co-opting exercise to further whet the market's appetite and bring recalcitrants into the fold, the high-end designer is "high-end" by definition of being high dollar, not necessarily high performance. They won’t make diddly rebuilding Lencos and they will do NOTHING that won’t make them diddly. In their hands, the idler wheel will soon be a titanium/graphite composition coated with rubber from first-growth virgin Indonesian rubber trees, the platters of some exotic ceramic, and the plinths made from only the very rarest hardwoods taken from the deepest, most dangerous African forests and assembled in finished using strictly proprietary, superior (though unproven) methods. Why? Because ONLY with these combinations can you bring out the very best performance. And, we all want the VERY best, right? Old song, new verse. The only other way for them to profit at the levels they will expect will be to sell it as a super cheap alternative with the hope of totally cornering the market for those looking to spin a few oldies and not wanting to spend more than a couple hundred. Yeah right, THAT’s going to happen, that market demands good sound.

Clearly, the idler wheel tables have A LOT going for them, especially when thoughtfully and effectively restored and when compared against much higher priced tables. I’d even say that idler wheel tables have the ultimate edge on belt drives. Of course if one is happy with what they hear from their own table, who can argue? I, for one, do not really care which technology is used, provided joy is attained through listening. This hobby is FULL of folks wanting you to believe that “you haven’t heard your music till you’ve heard it on this”. And, that’s where dough gets separated from wallet. The beauty of some of the latest idler wheel and DD units and restoration efforts is that nearly equal, equal, or even better performance can be attained at a lower cost - which allows either more money in the jar or more money to be spent on music. I am not holding my breath that high-end designers will be promoting that ethos – now or ever.

Macrojack, I’m not sure if this is cogent, but it is heartfelt and well considered. :-)

Drubin, there has been a lot of buzz, in my opinion at least, for a couple of reasons. One, people love to argue what they like and/or know best. OK, true, but not the main reason. There are valid reasons for promoting idlers and DD's and for questioning why belt drives currently dominate the scene. Inquiring minds want to know if it is because they are superior or just good enough that one can't really tell much difference or because of some nefarious or market-driven reason. IMHO, when in doubt, bet on the market. That is why I am HIGHLY skeptical of the "high-end designers" sudden interest in idlers. Clearly there have been idler advocates for quite some time - the restored Garrard projects go back quite a ways. Only a matter of time before folks started using similar tables to similar ends. Kudos to Jean for trying it with the Lencos but, by his own admission, it isn't a novel idea. But, with all the current buzz, Garrards, Lencos, Rek-O-Kuts, Russcos, etc., etc. this is beginning to look like something that audiophile will BUY! Thus, perhaps, the apparent "suit" interest.

To answer your second question directly, yes I loved my Spacedeck. It is still in service, however, with one of my sons. I still have a Hyperspace and it is a great table. However, we (another son and I) have built now six Lencos. All sound terrific, frankly. The best of our efforts will compete with turntables costing many times more, and we have friends that can attest to this fact. I some ways, they sound better, especially in the lower end and in that indefinable “pleasure” factor. I am neither an engineer nor a psychologist so I will not try to explain the “boogie factor” these tables seem to have. They are good but, on the other hand, not everyone has the time, patience, skill, or whatever to rebuild one. Also, if not done RIGHT, they can be loud, rumbling messes (whether anyone who has built one wants to admit that or not). In other words, proper implementation is crucial. I have had MANY folks write to me wanting me to build them one because they like our plinth designs and because they want to do the comparison but don’t have one or more of the necessities listed above. Again, this will pique the interest of those wanting to cash in. We, ourselves, have deferred except to make a couple for friends. Given recent improvements in my back, this may change quickly, though, especially if we can help a few folks before these old ones are all gone and you can only find one from a high-end designer at a high-end price. Ha! :-)

Screw the numbers. Trust yer ears. I don't see why at least a very close approximation of a controlled setting which would allow a one-to-one-to-one comparison of table/arm/cart combos could not be accomplished. At least enough so that one could make a case for THEIR listening preference (what counts most). Many have done so informally and anecdotally. And, to the extent they are satisfied with their choices ends the argument in their minds. Personally I’d rather sink my teeth into the music I hear than the numbers I see on a sheet of paper, but I understand you desire to have something more seemingly solid.

Of course THAT could be accomplished. But that tells you absolutely nothing about whether belt or DD is superior. It only tells you whether one combination sounds better than another. If that's all you want to know (and for most audiophiles most of the time, it probably is) that's fine. Just don't draw unwarranted conclusions from any such comparison.

So what would you rather have, something that sounds best to you or something that the numbers say is "superior" to something else? The definition of "superior", at least im my music room, is what sounds best, not what some imperical set of measurements say. A bucng of the 70's amps were so good by the numbers that they should have been creating live music - unfortuantely, many of those same amps sounded like crap. I would draw a conclusion that something was better based on the sound it made everytime and look at a decision based on measurements as the unwarranted choice. But, that's just me, maybe.

Drubin, I don't think accepting what one hears as true mean abdicating reason and critical thinking. Just saying that measurements can lie. When they do, THAT is whan you NEED reason to tell you the REAL truth! ;)

Mr. Chris Brady, you are obviously free to develop and produce any type of table you wish (I am all for research and development), and you may not know the answer to this question, but do you know how the owners of your current belt drive tables feel about the development of a direct drive table as your top-o-the-line model (assuming that means it’ll be the BEST table you'll make)? I only ask because I know from experience on this and other boards that many of the Teres owners are some of the most ardent supporters regarding the superiority of belt drives, in general, and of Teres tables as a leading example of same, in particular.

NO! Just PLAY records, people!!!!

Should have been a line in John Lennon's famous entreaty...

To my ears it is CD accurate.

Sorry, I don't trust audiophiles anymore.

Me neither. ;-)

"Are we going to extrapolate that all forms of that type of drive system are then superior to all other forms? Or that no other type of drive system can compete, even at various levels of price?"

Isn't that basically what happened with belt-drive?

It certainly DID but, exactly, not basically!!

Unless you are willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars chasing the end of the rainbow(that you'll never reach), I'd suggest finding a nice group of components you can live with, and enjoy your music on them.

This should be chiseled into tablets somewhere.

Lately, the audiophile climate is reminding me more and more of the late 70's and early 80's, with spec wars and the resulting poor performance that came with them.

Truly.

So, what do we have here?
We have a muddle.
Some belt drives are better than some direct drives.
Some direct drives are better than some belt drives.
And let's not forget Jean's beloved idler-wheel drives, which some like better than both direct drive or belt drive.

That may be the milieu right now, today, Tom, but with all due respect, a few years ago, when I got back into vinyl, nearly everyone on this site was trumpeting the superiority of belt drives, uber alles, no exceptions (OK, except some VERY stratosphere-priced tables). Further, one was rudely ridiculed for even ASKING anything differently. It was the marketing line and MANY bought into it hook, line, and stinker. Now, I am not siding with one approach in all cases becasue I have heard the good and bad of all. However, to deny the Zaikeman theory regarding the belt-drive zealots is to engage in revisionist history. :-)

Trying not to get too verbose, going back into this kind of mind-set by "leaning" on artificial number specifications is a very dangerous road to embark upon. It leads away from the desired end of musical performance to the ear, and leads toward the end of maximizing to a test procedure.

I couldn't agree more, I was only agreeing with what I thought Zaikesman was saying and that is that belt-drive zealots have been telling evryone that their "drive" is superior for awhile now and that they should not act holier than thou if things start to swing another way. (not that either camp would be "right")

Who among the respondents to this thread brings greater credibility?

Perhaps the correct answer is not the one some may believe....(and, no, not saying it is me, which it ain't)

Naw, I ain't bitin'. Like tables, if you're happy with your pick, I'm happy.

Dan. The 320 that was just a very short time ago the table to which all others should compare themselves was humiliated? Humiliated?

Dan, don't take personal offense, please. My only point is that, especially as one "climbs the ladder" in this hobby, differences (good or bad) generally become a matter of smaller and smaller degree (unless someone totally blows a design or comes up with something truly revolutionary). For there to be THAT much difference between the 320 (the accounts of many claiming it the best table they EVER heard - look up the comments) and the 380 leads me to believe (yes, IMHO) that either the 380 is the best thing since the invention of music (which I doubt) or that the 320 was not all that good to begin with (which I also doubt).

One word regarding your question, MJ.

No! :-)