Is it possible to have Good Imaging close to wall

IME the mbls often sound harsh because of the electronics. I have had the opportunity to play the speakers with electronics I knew and they performed quite well- not harsh at all. But its been a different matter when I hear them at shows!

They are not harsh at all when set up right.

THey are hard to set up right. SOund great in dealer showroom. Same setup by same dealer below par at shows.

TO hear them set up well, go to United Home Audio in Annapolis Junction, MD.

CAll first to make sure they are still there, I heard them there a couple years back. Nothing else I have heard comes close in terms of soundstage depth and location of players in that large space.

It is not only the harsh sound. The mid freq. are not that natural and realistic. With classical music a violin sounded a lot different than in real.

Mannnnn it is ugly as hell. I think some people will like the looks. Most I know as me find it very ugly.

3 dimensional sound is something you can teach people very easilly. After that you can make them understand why it is more involving and more fun to listen at.

I cannot imagine stereo and Multi channel without 3 dimensional sound. Without it, I would stop working. And look for something else. That is why I don't understand people who still sell 2 dimensional standard audio.

Mapman, the size of the soundstage and the size of the instruments within
are determined mostly by the room and speaker placement. It really is very
similar with the bass, i.e. because of the room you can get a lot of bass or no
bass.

As I have mentioned in my previous post, I have no problem that people have
a preference, e.g. “exaggerated” sound-stages or too much bass. We all have
preferences. However, if one strives to hear the recording as close as it was
made by the sound engineer, then one needs to minimising the reflections in
his/her room. If when doing that one ends up with a minimal sound-stage
then that is because that is what the sound engineer intended. If however, the
recording has a huge sound-stage then that is what one will hear also when
minimising reflections. (Of course, I assume that the listener has optimised
the position of his/her listening chair.)

Companies like Ohm and MBL are targeting people who appreciate a large
soundstage. Omni-directional speakers will create much larger soundstage
because by design they increase the amount of reflections in one’s room.
However, in most cases this much larger sound-stage is achieved at the
expense of pin-point localisation of the voices and instruments within the
sound-stage.

Achieving a decent two dimensional sound-stage (with normal speakers) is
not very difficult and can be achieve also with inexpensive electronics. One
only need to make sure that the acoustic paths of the sound waves generated
by the two speakers are as similar as possible. That is, the reflections need not
be eliminated - they only need to be the same for the two speakers. Basically
if one succeeds to achieve in his room perfect symmetry with respect to
his/her listening position, he/she will have a solid two-dimensional sound
stage with well centred voices. (Unfortunately, very often perfect symmetry
between the left and right speakers is less beneficial for the bass response.)

Achieving (also with normal speakers) a three-dimensional sound stage
where all voices and instruments have a natural size is very difficult.
Parameters like the dispersion pattern of the speaker, and the relative phases
of different frequencies play crucial roles here. Not only most systems do not
allow one to change these parameter without changing components, but one
would really need to know what is doing when attempting to change these
parameters. The best way to achieve this is to use electronic room correction
softwares/devices. Experimenting with different speakers and different
amplifiers can further improve things as the crossover network in the speakers
and the ability of an amp to conserve the relative phases of the various
frequencies in an audio signal is very important. (Bo19172 is preaching about
these here on audiogon for a long time now about these things, which he
calls qualities. He simply lacks the technical jargon/knowledge/understanding
to convince people about this, plus the fact that he is a dealer who pushes the
brands he sell rather aggressively is not helping. However, while I do not
agree with his behaviour, I believe him when he is saying that he is able to
obtain a holographic three-dimensional sound stage.)

Also, since you have mentioned live music, I should say that when it comes to
live music I associate the concept of three dimensional sound stage mostly to
large orchestra, large big bands and choir ensembles. IMO unless one listens
to these music styles, the sound-stage concept is less important as it is an
artificial concept made by the sound engineers in the studio. As such, IMO in
most cases it is more important for a stereo to be able to produce accurately
the timber and the dynamic of the instruments/music. Good musicians play
their instruments dynamically, and they do that every time they play. The
place where a musician will be on a stage, on the other hand, many change
from one concert to the other depending on the dimensions of the stage.

Finally, regarding the MBL speakers, I have listen quite a few times MBL
systems (starting from their smallest system and ending with their top of the
line system). Like any other stereo system, depending on room and set up
they can sound wonderful or terrible. I agree with the (positive) comments
made above about MBL. However, to make them reproduce realistically the
dynamic of a orchestra one would needs to power them with a nuclear reactor

NVP,

I'll agree to disagree and leave it at that and chalk it up to different goals and expectations, mine being to simulate a live performance as best as possible in order to be fully satisfied. That does not infer a soundstage that is too big, too much bass, or any other defect. These are all just right for me to meet my goals. It took a long time for me to achieve this. Obviously, not everyone has the same goals as me or else the audio landscape out there might look much different than in fact it does.

"However, in most cases this much larger sound-stage is achieved at the
expense of pin-point localisation of the voices and instruments within the
sound-stage. "

Not when done really well. The mbl demo was the best by far I ever heard in regards to pinpoint locations in 3 dimensions, not less. The room had as much to do with this as the speakers. Other designs might do similarly well, maybe even better, but I have not heard it anywhere yet. That includes other 6 figure dealer showroom systems and demos with similar goals done on a smaller scale that I have heard that were quite excellent otherwise.

"Also, since you have mentioned live music, I should say that when it comes to
live music I associate the concept of three dimensional sound stage mostly to
large orchestra, large big bands and choir ensembles."

IT is largely a matter of how the musicians are set up, the room acoustics, and the perspective of the listener from their listening position. In many cases, this all adds up to a less 3-D soundstage at most events for most people, but not necessarily. Things can be set up both live and at home to do way better, if one cares enough to do so.

I will say that though that this degree of 3-D imaging is impressive when it occurs, but its absence does not bother even me that much. In a perfect world, I would want it probably if I had the means to achieve it, but in practice, I settle for a very good imaging system that in my room will probably never match the absolute top notch I have heard to be possible.

Choral music might be the thing that suffers the most when imaging and soundstage is not top notch possible. WHen things click, it can truly be heavenly.