Thanks for clearing up matters 4yanx, I wouldn't say we disagree about the issue of PRaT, or more precisely the "word" PRaT or even its meaning, what it comes down to is that PRaT is a politically-charged word, a leftover from the Linny vs High-Mass American 'table wars of the '80s. So you're right, in order to open some eyes. In fact, many eyes already are open, even on the part of manufacturers, as high-mass turntables of all sorts are resorting to more and more ways to increase speed stability from their high-mass platters, (by the use of thread and mylar in lieu of rubber belts to the use of multiple motors and flywheels), another term might have to be adopted, such is politics.
And Artar1, you continue to misquote and perform your own kind of reductionism to my own writings: to say that PRaT, or to use a less politically-charged word, speed stability, is the most important quality in vinyl playback is something that has always been conventional wisdom, from quartz-locked direct-drive systems to the Lingo on the Linn and the use of several motors on the large Clearaudios, all these things were an admission that speed was not perfect, and needed more help. The use of several motors by Clearaudio on their already-massive platter is an admission that mass alone is not sufficient in a belt-drive system to achieve true speed stability (yes, I read the high-end analogue reviews as well and can name a list of expensive items as well as anyone in this forum, I just don't automatically covet them). And while measurements show one thing, my point has always been that despite these measurements, as you helpfully point out with respect to cheap DDs, these speed instabilities still exist and are clearly audible. The same applies to the large price-no-object turntables that come with very impressive measurements, but that in many cases lack musical involvement. This means there is a speed instability, and this instability is occurring at a lower frequency due to the high mass and thus inertia of the platter. Picture a loaded tractor-trailer vs a Toyota Corrolla: the truck has to start braking long before the light, and start up is euqally slow, due to its mass/inertia. The Toyota stops on a dime and starts equally quickly. Only a very high-torque system overcomes this, with a superb drive system and correctly-calculated flywheel system.
You continue your pandering of high-priced turntables by defending what you haven't heard, and raising accusations of jealousy. If you weren't so evidently in the status game from the beginning, you would know from my many posts - I admit fellows like 4yanx with his previous use of the expensive Graham 2.2 are more to your liking and so probably pay no attention to my posts except to defend high-price items for the sake of their price-tags - you would know that I own and have owned some quite expensive belt-drive turntables, two Maplenolls (Athena and Ariadne) and an Audiomeca, and so had nothing to gain from promotong Lencos. Until I accidentally tripped over idler-wheel drives (I didn't even know they existed) more than 10 years ago I had fully intended continuing on the high-end treadmill with more and more expensive pieces (at the end of the eighties I already owned MCs which cost roughly $2000).
Which brings me to the accusation that I am simply biased: I have guided many to rebuilding Lencos under their own steam, and to test them in their own systems to come to their own conclusions far away from my influence, and to report on it honestly on my thread if possible, or at the very least in e-mails. There is no more objective test possible in this world, so your accusation falls utterly flat. As to enemies, unfortunately this is no exaggeration, and is on record on my Home Despot thread (you should check into actual evidence before jumping to conclusions and making accusations), objective proof, not misinterpretation. One lied repeatedly and misrepresented both the experiment (evidence) and claimed I had written what I had never written, the other, perhaps like you, was simply jealous at the amount of atention I was getting, and sent me a personal e-mail entitled "You are a pussy", and tried to discredit my effort by various means. Again, if you had paid attention, I use the Lenco simply to demonstrate the enormous potential in idler-wheel-drive systems, which I believe to be the best approach, I confess (but again, I lead people to conduct the experiment in the laboratory of their own homes and systems and risk negative feedback, which has never occcurred). This is because the Lenco can still be had very cheaply, because of fellows like you who respect only price-tags and believe they will somehow be more respected if they fight to defend the status-quo (fellows like you also permeate science, which develops more slowly because of it...Galileo's greatest enemies were his colleagues, not the Church). I learned long ago that a lot of very expensive equipment sounds like crap, is utterly unmusical (some are even a-musical), a lesson you should learn as well by listening and trusting your reactions. In fact, this is becoming a theme in more and more high-end reviews, which is a definite sign of hope. As to the importance of PRaT, many manufacturers have always stressed its importance (Linn, Naim, Rega), and since the lack of it was clearly audible in certain over-priced items, a faction developed which claimed that PRaT was an illusion, which named the proponents Flat Earthers (thus implying they were being unscientific, though in fact the reverse was true), and stood by the expensive status-enhancing equipment. We dance to music, this is rhythm, the sheet-music is built on timing, the musicians have to keep perfect time, our breathing and heartbeats develop according to timing, and this is the biological root of our response to music. The harmonies depend on timing (destroyed by audible wow), the actual physical tracking of a cartridge improves the better the timing is. It bothers me not a whit if fellows like you are not impressed by my "diatribes", and please feel free to ignore any further posts, or if you feel you must address them, then please inform yourself first, and refrain from misrepresenting me.
As to those others who are watching, sorry for hijacking this thread in this way, but there is nothing I hate more than being misquoted and misrepresented. I personally believe that the best physical system so far developed for vinyl playback is the idler-wheel drive system, which I discovered all unawares more than 10 years ago in a flea market in Helsinki, which amounted to an instant conversion (and several there who actually heard it, as opposed to arguing what they had no experience of, had asked me to adapt the system to their extremely expensive record-playing systems). It was my hope when I started the Home Depot thread that I could get the world to test this theory in the laboratories of their own systems and thus provide the empirical testing and thus proof. So far, this is a 100% success. It is not a promotion of the Lenco, it is the use of the excellent but cheap Lenco to make the point, which by its very cheapness encourages nmany to make the attempt. So far even my enemies, who showed honour in this instance (something about Audiogon brings out the best in people, even when behaving badly), have admitted the Lenco was superb, even if they didn't accept the Lenco's version of events (tremendous bass, incredible air, astounding imaging, etc.) and claimed it was manufactured. It was my hope that some manufacturer out there would once again pick up the idler-weel technology and begin to manufacturer a new idler-wheel drive at a reasonable price (Loricraft/Garrard makes them, but at astronomical prices), so that all audiophiles could enjoy the benefits. I'm nothing if not an idealist, and probably incredibly naive to boot. I see now that it would be extremely expensive to produce something equivalent to the Lenco (but I would love to be proved wrong on this count), so I guess we're stuck with recycling the old technology. As Dougdeacon wrote, manufacturers ARE paying attention to the issue of PRaT (or whatever they want to call it), and are making decisions based on its presence or absence in their designs. They are also discovering that when true speed stability is achieved (not according to some evidently faulty test but in actually playing an album with real actual music on it and depending on visceral reaction as well as in terms of information), all else falls into place, given a good design to begin with. I applaud the developers of the Teres project for paying attention to these more musical less-easily pinned-down facets of vinyl reproduction, as I indeed applaud all who do so, and like-minded consumers as well. Audiogon is indeed my favourite forum, after all, glad I tripped over it by accident, as I tripped over the idler-wheel principle years ago ;-)
And Artar1, you continue to misquote and perform your own kind of reductionism to my own writings: to say that PRaT, or to use a less politically-charged word, speed stability, is the most important quality in vinyl playback is something that has always been conventional wisdom, from quartz-locked direct-drive systems to the Lingo on the Linn and the use of several motors on the large Clearaudios, all these things were an admission that speed was not perfect, and needed more help. The use of several motors by Clearaudio on their already-massive platter is an admission that mass alone is not sufficient in a belt-drive system to achieve true speed stability (yes, I read the high-end analogue reviews as well and can name a list of expensive items as well as anyone in this forum, I just don't automatically covet them). And while measurements show one thing, my point has always been that despite these measurements, as you helpfully point out with respect to cheap DDs, these speed instabilities still exist and are clearly audible. The same applies to the large price-no-object turntables that come with very impressive measurements, but that in many cases lack musical involvement. This means there is a speed instability, and this instability is occurring at a lower frequency due to the high mass and thus inertia of the platter. Picture a loaded tractor-trailer vs a Toyota Corrolla: the truck has to start braking long before the light, and start up is euqally slow, due to its mass/inertia. The Toyota stops on a dime and starts equally quickly. Only a very high-torque system overcomes this, with a superb drive system and correctly-calculated flywheel system.
You continue your pandering of high-priced turntables by defending what you haven't heard, and raising accusations of jealousy. If you weren't so evidently in the status game from the beginning, you would know from my many posts - I admit fellows like 4yanx with his previous use of the expensive Graham 2.2 are more to your liking and so probably pay no attention to my posts except to defend high-price items for the sake of their price-tags - you would know that I own and have owned some quite expensive belt-drive turntables, two Maplenolls (Athena and Ariadne) and an Audiomeca, and so had nothing to gain from promotong Lencos. Until I accidentally tripped over idler-wheel drives (I didn't even know they existed) more than 10 years ago I had fully intended continuing on the high-end treadmill with more and more expensive pieces (at the end of the eighties I already owned MCs which cost roughly $2000).
Which brings me to the accusation that I am simply biased: I have guided many to rebuilding Lencos under their own steam, and to test them in their own systems to come to their own conclusions far away from my influence, and to report on it honestly on my thread if possible, or at the very least in e-mails. There is no more objective test possible in this world, so your accusation falls utterly flat. As to enemies, unfortunately this is no exaggeration, and is on record on my Home Despot thread (you should check into actual evidence before jumping to conclusions and making accusations), objective proof, not misinterpretation. One lied repeatedly and misrepresented both the experiment (evidence) and claimed I had written what I had never written, the other, perhaps like you, was simply jealous at the amount of atention I was getting, and sent me a personal e-mail entitled "You are a pussy", and tried to discredit my effort by various means. Again, if you had paid attention, I use the Lenco simply to demonstrate the enormous potential in idler-wheel-drive systems, which I believe to be the best approach, I confess (but again, I lead people to conduct the experiment in the laboratory of their own homes and systems and risk negative feedback, which has never occcurred). This is because the Lenco can still be had very cheaply, because of fellows like you who respect only price-tags and believe they will somehow be more respected if they fight to defend the status-quo (fellows like you also permeate science, which develops more slowly because of it...Galileo's greatest enemies were his colleagues, not the Church). I learned long ago that a lot of very expensive equipment sounds like crap, is utterly unmusical (some are even a-musical), a lesson you should learn as well by listening and trusting your reactions. In fact, this is becoming a theme in more and more high-end reviews, which is a definite sign of hope. As to the importance of PRaT, many manufacturers have always stressed its importance (Linn, Naim, Rega), and since the lack of it was clearly audible in certain over-priced items, a faction developed which claimed that PRaT was an illusion, which named the proponents Flat Earthers (thus implying they were being unscientific, though in fact the reverse was true), and stood by the expensive status-enhancing equipment. We dance to music, this is rhythm, the sheet-music is built on timing, the musicians have to keep perfect time, our breathing and heartbeats develop according to timing, and this is the biological root of our response to music. The harmonies depend on timing (destroyed by audible wow), the actual physical tracking of a cartridge improves the better the timing is. It bothers me not a whit if fellows like you are not impressed by my "diatribes", and please feel free to ignore any further posts, or if you feel you must address them, then please inform yourself first, and refrain from misrepresenting me.
As to those others who are watching, sorry for hijacking this thread in this way, but there is nothing I hate more than being misquoted and misrepresented. I personally believe that the best physical system so far developed for vinyl playback is the idler-wheel drive system, which I discovered all unawares more than 10 years ago in a flea market in Helsinki, which amounted to an instant conversion (and several there who actually heard it, as opposed to arguing what they had no experience of, had asked me to adapt the system to their extremely expensive record-playing systems). It was my hope when I started the Home Depot thread that I could get the world to test this theory in the laboratories of their own systems and thus provide the empirical testing and thus proof. So far, this is a 100% success. It is not a promotion of the Lenco, it is the use of the excellent but cheap Lenco to make the point, which by its very cheapness encourages nmany to make the attempt. So far even my enemies, who showed honour in this instance (something about Audiogon brings out the best in people, even when behaving badly), have admitted the Lenco was superb, even if they didn't accept the Lenco's version of events (tremendous bass, incredible air, astounding imaging, etc.) and claimed it was manufactured. It was my hope that some manufacturer out there would once again pick up the idler-weel technology and begin to manufacturer a new idler-wheel drive at a reasonable price (Loricraft/Garrard makes them, but at astronomical prices), so that all audiophiles could enjoy the benefits. I'm nothing if not an idealist, and probably incredibly naive to boot. I see now that it would be extremely expensive to produce something equivalent to the Lenco (but I would love to be proved wrong on this count), so I guess we're stuck with recycling the old technology. As Dougdeacon wrote, manufacturers ARE paying attention to the issue of PRaT (or whatever they want to call it), and are making decisions based on its presence or absence in their designs. They are also discovering that when true speed stability is achieved (not according to some evidently faulty test but in actually playing an album with real actual music on it and depending on visceral reaction as well as in terms of information), all else falls into place, given a good design to begin with. I applaud the developers of the Teres project for paying attention to these more musical less-easily pinned-down facets of vinyl reproduction, as I indeed applaud all who do so, and like-minded consumers as well. Audiogon is indeed my favourite forum, after all, glad I tripped over it by accident, as I tripped over the idler-wheel principle years ago ;-)
