Well, Frogman, the answer is quite simple. Ask yourself how many people actually could afford to live beeing just a jazz musician? Imho opinion jazz survived despite music business, not because of it. Certainly, that has lot to do with other social factors as well, but if the 'business'saw the opportunity to make more money with jazz, I am sure that its development and history would have taken another direction. The 'business' will support the ones who will bring the biggest buck, and usually those ones will not be our favourite 'greats'. I guess there is no need to talk about music business, and its flaws or its wrongdoing in terms of culture and education
Regarding previous subject, I am not talking about narrow 'top trier,'. It is in fact my 'bottom trier' who is probbably broader than yours.(no offense) You have said that jazz society is a small circle, it may be so, but the opus left behind is absolutely huge, so much great music, I am afraid lifetime is not enough to hear it all.
Under those terms, I guess one should have open ears and perspective and than it will be rewarded with more great music. Quite often that happens to me, and if that was not the case, long time ago I could option to have couple hundred 'top' records and maybe great collection of stamps too, instead. |
Frogman, I am pleased that I can learn something from you, would not loose time in arguing, hope that I do not leave that impression. Regarding the subject, of players who were not appriciated enough. Hope that these words will finaly clear my point of view on that matter. I have suggested that here are numerous players in jazz, who did not get substantial recognition. You, on the other hand, think that everyone who had such destiny, simply deserved it, because was not good enough player, and that the great ones always will come to the top. I belleive that in term 'great' lies the root of our missunderstanding. For me, there are lots of 'great' players, for you, there is only a handfull of 'the great' ones. With that I agree. (THE great) On the other hand, very few men can deliver the things that the 'The graet' ones can, and by messuring everything with that standards in mind, man can only narrow his musical choices. Thats what I ment when I have used the analogy with Rembrandt. Very few men in history of art had his skills, would that mean that their work is not great or impressive? But, let us not go into semantics. You have mentioned 'context' as well. If we look some players and their work in time when they lived, man could be surprised to find, that even Grant Green, for example, was not considered 'the top' player, and was deeply unhappy with his status. So, it was really tough world where they lived and it is no wonder that many lost their way or just remained in obscurity. Of course, I am very courious to find more 'hidden' music and to know more about it in general, and that is all I ever wanted to say. You may have found all music that you thought that is worth listening too, and thats fine. Certainly I will continue to try to look things from your perspective in order to understand better or to learn something new, and for that I am gratefull that you are writing here. As for George Benson, my thoghts are quite subjective, he is a very good player, but he never managed to 'touch' me, always he gave me the 'hollow' feeling, like his skills exsisted just because of them self,not because he was trying to transcedent some feeling with his playing. Kind of Al Di Meola, guy can play, but there is something missing. As for Dave Burns, you clearly are not his fan, maybe you could tell us why? You are quite happy to not have him in your collection, does that mean that you will skip the albums where he played or had some bigger part?Some of very fine Dizzy's, Moody's, Griffin,s Taylor,s and so on, list is long? I like the album, but the cover is great, looks like its have been made with some Edward Hopper's painting in mind https://youtu.be/fCjecP1HT-s https://youtu.be/fCjecP1HT-s |
Sorry, this is a clip with the great cover,that I mentioned above https://youtu.be/dG-RLgDabRsThe trumpets are played by Clark Terry and Snooky Young.The pair recorded lots of albums playing together, but Young did not make any album as leader untill 70's. |
Orpheus, I am glad that you liked it, and that I was able to contribute to that. If I may recomend, these are the two albums in which he plays with Monty Alexander, first 'Below the bass line', where Monty is a guest, and second is 'Rocksteady' of Monty Alexander, where Ranglin is a guest. http://youtu.be/NuyrY--vs3Uhttp://youtu.be/v7dVmicK7qQSince posting on this forum is quite slow, I will use the opportunity to mention one other guitar player, who is maybe known only to few, which is really pity. So, in hope that good music will spread around...Oscar Moore, used to play with Nat King Cole, on this album plays together with Carl Perkins, piano player (author of jazz standard 'Grooveyard') http://youtu.be/o3OjL1Gcs-Uhttp://youtu.be/TpZ2on-4M2Q |
...'The question I have is this: Does this audience in Switzerland know who wrote this tune?? Do they think it's an original of this so-called big band'?... As I am European I guees I should share some of my experiences. In swiss town of Montreux there is a Jazz Festival, one, if not the one, of the greatest in the world,that lasts two weeks, than not so far away in Italian town of Perugia there is Umbria Jazz festival, that lasts around 10 days, and both are full of the people, from all over the Europe and world,of course.That may not mean anything per se, but in all major towns in Europe you can find excellent jazz clubs and usually they are packed with people when ever there is a good show. Than again, I was in Nyc couple of years ago, in Jazz Standard club, Reuben Wilson,Grant Green J.R. and Godfathers of Groove were playing two nights, and the place was half empty, I even had the privilege to introduce my self with Mr.Wilson after the gig. What I want to point is that for us, people from Europe, those artists are trully greats, and the music itself is an art form, and maybe, just maybe, for americans they are only entertainers. For this reason and because of various political and race issues maybe lots of them felt better overseas since the 60's of last century. So, I would not think that 'swiss' or any other take the music for granted, and without any pre knowledge. Even more, because 'knowing' Jazz is considered to be a part of life style of 'educated' people. I am not saying that is the right way, but it might be a fact. That is certainly subject for another discussion. Take a look at this clip. Future generations of artists and fans? http://youtu.be/g121gvj_4aE |
Rok, Than this is a great oportunity for you to learn something new. Here is Reuben Wilson's 2nd album that was cut for Blue Note,called 'Love Bug' featuring Grant Green, Lee Morgan and George Coleman. http://youtu.be/-p6b-o2CsEcThis is his 3rd album for Blue Note, called 'Blue Mode' featuring Melvin Sparks, great guitar player http://youtu.be/KkyP7nVMQc0Finaly, this is the line up that I saw in NYC. Recognising anyone? http://youtu.be/cDQbVVG_VKAI consider myself as individual, so I cant answer your generalizations about European feelings toward jazz.Like I said, that might be an interesting topic, but I guess for that is required more than an opinion |
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Jack DeJohnette,Lester Bowie with Abercrombie and Gomez. The theme is called 'Silver Hollow' from JDJ album 'New directions' from 1978. https://youtu.be/YVjX1EhNbLwI certainly like the 'old directions' more, but have this in my collection. I belleive that every music style reflects certain aspect of some particular moment in time, it represents it, or maybe it is a witness of time, like a architecture is. There are many different reasons that are creating the esthetics of some period, both economic and social, and aldo we have tendency to call that long stretch of music with a same name as 'jazz', there is no doubt in my mind that we are speaking about almost totaly different styles of music, that indeed share same roots, but still are different, like the architecture is, or mind frame of the people of anothere era, fashion or almost any other social or intellectual aspect is. For this reason every music era or style is basicly unrepatable and there is no point searching for it in later times, not there is sense in pointing in 'new' ones and think of them as a 'same but better' or 'evolved' thing. I belleive that classical music is much more clear on that subject, aldo with advantage of much longer time frame and those distinctions we can see or hear much bettter |
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Always thought that Chet Baker was a great figure in jazz, so much, that I never posted any of his albums, thinking that everyone has lots of his albums. Beeing 'obscure' (not thinking about CB) once, should not stop us finding and listening their music now, I guess thats the reason why we all are here. Let me post a guitar player who is quite 'obscure' even for me. Lou Mecca, once considered as a 'new star' in Down Beat magazine, started on trumpet, changed to guitar later.
In 1947, he befriended jazz guitarist and educator Johnny Smith who, along with Tal Farlow and Joe Pass, are Mecca's greatest influences on his instrument. In 1955, he recorded for Blue Note as a leader of his own quartet, featuring Jack Hitchcock on vibes, Vinnie Burke on bass, and Jimmy Campbell on drums. Mecca has also performed and recorded with Ella Fitzgerald, Bill Evans, Teddy Charles, Gil Melles, Eddie Costa, Al Cohn, and Chris Conners.
[url] https://youtu.be/ctODsdMWY5w[/url] [url] https://youtu.be/aW8Xd1MFCFE[/url] [url] https://youtu.be/oUfZpm0GR-Y[/url] |
Spaeking of jazzmen who ended up in prison, because of possession of drugs, one should not overlook the faith of Hampton Hawes, who was sentenced to 10 years in prison, only to be pardoned by JFK after serving 5 This is the album that Hawes recorded while he was expecting trial. No wonder that themes are spiritual, it is called the 'Sermon'. [url] https://youtu.be/NNtl1NdvfhU[/url] [url] https://youtu.be/MLqa3xqSxNo[/url] [url] https://youtu.be/qscWuGsBAJg[/url] |
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Regarding 'the dispute' that is going on...'the very controversial jazz movement on the west coast in the 1950's was a beautiful one in certain musical ways and yet it failed for probably one reason. And that was that there was too litlle of the heart and spirit of the men in their music'....'they were too involved in musical device gleaned from their classical teachers, device that they tried to adapt to the jazz idiom in an attepmpt to somehow extend its parameter in a wholly mechanical, methodological fashion. In their intellectual exuberance they were so intent on doing something different that they overlooked the possibility, that just being themselves would have produced the difference they sought. The whole value to jazz and to themselves would have been much greater and lasting'....these are the words written in 1962.....It seems to me that the same dispute is going on for decades now, from same positions, and that only the name of protagonists have changed.....any comments? As far as I am concern I realy enjoy listening and finding some long forgotten music, very much like the one that once was considered as 'soulless', but I am sure that that cant be said about it now...example Above mentioned Jimmy Giuffre, with Modern Jazz Quartet, from 1956. [url] https://youtu.be/KQ0cNilXb2U[/url] [url] https://youtu.be/d-hPtUrDric[/url] |
Just a couple of words, if I may, and than will post some good music. Personally, jazz music that I currrently like and listen is more or less from 50's and up to year '65. at the most. Sometimes I buy the later published music but its usually from the same protagonists, from previous decades (Miles not included) meaning that their style had not gone thru major changes. Note that I said currently listen. I remember the time when I bought my first pop rock record, I was 9 years old, the record was double red album from the Beatles, compilation of their hits from 1962-1966. Guess it was 4 years later that I bought their 'white' album, listened it couple of times, did not 'dig' it, put it on shelf, and forget about it . Must I said that now I consider the 'white' album as their best ? My point (its been said before ) is that at some moment in time, all art was considered modern. Believe that I don need to point at obvious examples in art, music, film or literature that prove how once, art that was scrutinised, later was considered great. Admit that I find no need to defend the feeling and thought that my rather archaic musical personal taste is the best one, even I admit that I dont listen other music genres suc as (in alphabetical order) hip hop, metal, pop, rave and so on. But at same time, am I aware that years and years ago, I liked hard and bay area rock, liked german psychodelic bends, listened to british prog music, etc, and all that eventually led me to jazz. So, the fact that i dont like 'fusion' music, or some other 'modern' form, or other type of musical expression does not necessarily means that it will remain that way. Also, I believe that is very important to learn about art in general and about art form that we are interested in. Only that way one will be able to understand the hystorical and social origin of process that affects us by forming our personal taste. Guess we are fortunate that couple of professional musicans choosed to participate here, and I am often using that opportunity to try to learn something new, by looking or hearing things from their point of view. Doing it so does not makes me feel threatend or even ashamed because my personal taste might seemed simple, it is not a shame not knowing something, but to remain in ignorance is. Finally, even if someone chooses that he likes more 'simple' or older forms of music, there is nothing wrong with that, as long as one leaves the window for opportunity for future things to come. There is no reason what so ever for anyone to have hard feelings about differences in music that we all like. But, as strange as it may seems, I found out that there are other individuals who obviously have bigger issues with 'modern' music, than as some of 'ours' guys. Note, aldo this page is quite good and educative, I choosed this clip just for fun, not as something that to put more fuel on fire. [url] http://www.openculture.com/2016/01/hear-the-experimental-piano-jazz-album-by-comedian-h-jon-benjamin...[/url] And finaly, some good music, an album from 1957. under the name of Herbie Mann, but I bought it becuse of Bobby Jaspar, from Belgium, who played with many greats, only to die quite young in 1963.Hope you will like it [url] https://youtu.be/otengS4cE3Q[/url] |
I have few of his albums, just listened them recently, so I decided to post. Not so famous player, I cant remember that anyone mentioned him lately. Great guitarist, imho. This album is from 1956. On vibes is Eddie Costa, another player who had no chance to show all his potential due. The album is called 'Frivolous Sal' from Sal Salvador [url] https://youtu.be/nv62s6bwIsU[/url] [url] https://youtu.be/k5Vj7ZrQCrA[/url] On my previous post I have put album of Herbie Mann and Bobby Jaspar. On that album the guitar is played buy Joe Puma. This next two albums also I like, its very nice music, from 1954.and 1957. On first, Puma is joined by Barry Galbraith. The album is titled 'East coast'. On second album, called simply 'Jazz' from later date, he plays with Bill Evans, Oscar Pettiford and Paul Motian.The sound here is not so great, but the cd editions sounds very good. Hope you will like it [url] https://youtu.be/A7qzEaxzC6M[/url] [url] https://youtu.be/T4sivVnRBmI[/url] |
I try to post albums from musicians who are not well known, who either were forgotten, or even worse, never made it in first place. This album is from trio that cut only one album, from 1961. Here are the links. The Trio, Gaylor, Bean, Norris. Hope you will like it . [/url] https://youtu.be/vI7FdzzVnKA[/url] [url] https://youtu.be/oyF6tpViecs[/url] [url] https://youtu.be/g46GoV9wIhU[/url] [url] https://youtu.be/6TJfpD4--Fo[/url] Walter Norris, piano player, continued to make more music, but Bean, guitar player and Gaylor eventually left the scene and stopped playing. Billy Bean recorded few albums,as well as leader and as sideman, mostly on west coast. Apperently he left some mark on some famous players too. Here are some links [url] https://youtu.be/Fr_iLB6t2MU[/url] [url] https://youtu.be/rApGoZQEINg[/url] [url] https://youtu.be/TSAqki6qSWM[/url] [url] https://youtu.be/68109PNAcW4[/url] |
Its been said that it in early 60's,' West Coast jazz scene took a more groovy, soulful and harder swinging approach, in a delibrate effort to escape some of the previous cooler, more mellow and polished sounds'. New names came on the scene, one of them was a tenor sax Curtis Amy, who made six albums from 1960-1963 for a Pacific jazz label. Here are some links, from 'Groovin Blue' and 'Way Down', recorded 1961. and 1962. [url] https://youtu.be/McwAoqvvyXk[/url] [url] https://youtu.be/48YVLMsoPkg[/url]
If someone decides to listen more his work, there is also his album called 'Katanga' that I have already posted, with 'mysterious' trumpet player Dupree Bolton, and Ray Crawford (played with Ahmad Jamal, J.Smith, etc.) Here is the link again, as I am already mentioning him. [url] https://youtu.be/wLxxeBRqqKw[/url] [url] http://www.jazz.com/features-and-interviews/2009/4/14/in-search-of-dupree-bolton-part-1[/url] Hope you will like it
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Every time brings new forms. Jazz as it once was was specific in many ways, and its hard to expect that things will remain the same.Without many words, the perspective on music is probably different in Europe than in States. It goes without saying that now education is considered as a plus. If you dont mind I will share two short live clips, gigs were held in my home country. First one is Gypsy jazz... [url] https://youtu.be/8SxBP3-F7PY?list=PL24C479249F261AEA[/url] Just to mention, violin player Florin Nicolescu attended Conservatorie de Paris, the accordian player Marjan Krajna gradueted on Russsian state music Academy, and the bass player Jurica Stelma is member of national filharmonic orchestra. Of course,all of that does not make them necessarily good jazz musicians, or does not prove anything, but imho it certainly helps. [url] https://youtu.be/bPook3wafBc?list=PL3R0km4nxthXF4r_uKUvg_5FHMfwkeFW3[/url] The young guy on vibrahone Simun Matisic, has also classical education, bass player is mentioned above. Somehow that seems to be pattern, in this present time, classicly trained musicians are playing jazz for their own pleasure. Orpheus, on first album vibrahone is played by B.H. on second its Roy Ayers. You can find all mentined albums and more on Amazon |
Frogman, this next clip says it all... [url] https://youtu.be/UPw-3e_pzqU[/url] ...already I suspect that with so much music from 50's and 60's man can find time to explore more modern sounds of jazz, and now, you of all people, are pointing in opposite direction... |
Frogman,some people in audience might say something like this.... [url] https://youtu.be/NpYEJx7PkWE[/url] I am posting 'obscure' music because I see that people who are already involved here, know very much about jazz in general, and I guess they are familiar with furthter exploring of music of some author that they like. So, I thought, there is no point in posting the more obvius ones. However, it seems that West Coast jazz is perhaps an unsearched area, so my next posts will go in that direction, untill somebody says enough... Will start with this two links, certainly very well known names First, Lee Konitz and Warne Marsh, album is simpy called by their names, together with B. Bauer and O.Pettiford [url] https://youtu.be/AQRgEj3AWPU[/url] Second one, few years later, from 1961.Teddy Edwards Quartet. Album is called 'Good Gravy' [url] https://youtu.be/qnyWftdb3DY[/url] [url] https://youtu.be/SBc1nm3JIko[/url] [url] https://youtu.be/Y8lNm8fO204[/url] |
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Orpheus, yes, it can be bought on Amazon, it costs cca 14usd. The label is Fresh Sounds Records, if you are concerned about fidelity, they are all right. |
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Orpheus, very nice music, thank you. I have no records of japanese music, but I like what you have posted. As for Bud Shank, this looks like the sam line up, but another album? https://youtu.be/pvVEZ3N8P8QI have neither, will try to find and buy them. Saw 'Koto and Flue' vinyl edition on Amazon...pity that aint no cd |
When I was quite young, there was a bar in town whose owner introduced juke box as a way to play music there. It was already modern one, with cd's. The owner must have thought that introducing juke box would be a good idea and that it would lead to a rise of profit, because instead of playing his music, the visitors would need to 'buy' a song. Everyone did, for a while... Than I have noticed, that among all the discs the juke box contained, was a concert album of Led Zeppelin (the same lp I had at home) on which is 26:50 min long version of 'Dazed and Confused' song. In a time when I liked the Zeppelins, I have listened that song maybe once or twice . For those of you who maybe dont know, after about 5 min, J.Page and the bend behind are becoming quite 'noise makers' and that lasts next 20 or so minuts. I am thinking should I put the link here...just a joke. So, from time to time, I would went there, payed 1.5usd and played that song. Would return aprox. 15 min later to see are there any guests there, usually I would not find any. Needless to say, there was always some song that could ruin the atmosphere and soon the juke box was out, free music was back in. I know that this story is childlish, but I cant resist smiling, every time that somebody mentions juke box, it comes on my mind. What is maybe funny to say, some 20 years later I have owned the bar in same area, and sometimes, when I wanted to close earlier I would simply put some jazz music. It worked better than Zeppelin, people would start to go for the door very soon. I am sorry to say, but for what ever reason that is young peoples reaction to jazz in majority of places. ( aldo I consider myself young too, I am 43) My favourite 'bouncer' track... 'I give them five minuts to finish the drinks'... https://youtu.be/FTshuTxrSvU |
Schubert, what happened? Can you explain more? Do you realy need to quit? Please reconsider. |
Schubert, hope you would not mind me giving you an advice, but if you can calm down and join later, I personally would be glad to hear (read) from you again. If not for anything else, than for a sake of contributing to such a diverse companionship here. You must admit that there are some good words and music shared and your posts were for sure appriciated. |
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...and speaking of bass players and their albums, this one should not be overlooked. The name says it all 'Bass on top' https://youtu.be/784vBuUrUFQ |
Kenny Burrel is playing on above mentioned album, as well as on this edition. It is compilation of three albums (aldo the man who posted this on you tube forget to mention the existence of one it is intersting for us, right now. It is first album made as a leader of bass player Doug Watkins, 'Watkins at large' , where he is jonied by H.Mobley and Burrell. This cd's have two other Donald Byrd albums, where Watkins plays too. I have that Blue Note edition, so I know) Here is the link https://youtu.be/M72VFZ8D3c8 |
Orpheus, have those albums. Here are some others, if by any chance you dont have them already. Milt Jackson's 'Ballads and blues' with Lucky Thompson, Best and Pettiford. https://youtu.be/axuGJ7SY0e8Again, Best with Quebec, on album that is made of songs that were originaly issued as 45 singles and later presented as double cd. https://youtu.be/_CDPhrG9MBI |
Horace Parlan, plays piano on Mingus album, also played with Lou Donaldson, Booker Ervin, Eddie ‘Lockjaw’ Davis, Johnny Griffin, Rahsaan Roland Kirk and others. He made few recordings as leader for a Blue Note label,at the begining of 60's in various set ups. This one is in trio form, called simply Us3, that I like. Probably he is in that 'underrated' category. Here is the link https://youtu.be/BsEDeLrk65k?list=PL34877C742F2457B0 |
Orpheus, perception is strange. Have 'Salt S.' album as well, now you made me check it for H.Parlan. Had no idea he was playing there, always thought about that record as one where Eric Gale plays nice sounding, blues guitar.Those Cti recordings are kind of baroquesque. Here is another album of Stanley Turrentine from period that I like more, and aldo I have it since long time ago, to my surprise just noticed that Parlan plays there too. 'Up at Minton's' https://youtu.be/-JReGzY6C08?list=PLF46F133F083566FD |
It seems to me that we are step away from a disscusion about aestethics in music, and that is time to stop using subjective vs objective terms, because the theme asks for much broader explanations. In doing so we should talk about history of music (jazz at least) and about of evolution of personal, cultural and social values that one needs to comprehend before can give a worthy opinion about the subject. In this case the subject or the question would be to understand what is considered as the 'quality or beauty' of some performerd piece of music, and why do we think or feel so and second, what we consider as 'quality or skill' when we talk about some performing artist. My question to you guys is are you intersted in trying to find consensus on this matter, or shall we just conclude with that latin 'de gustibus non est dispuntadum?
If the answer is positive, let me just start with a qoute that some of you may find appropriate...'Thanks therefore, to what is harmonicus in us, we perceive harmonius composition of sounds, and we delight in them for we understand that we are made in their likeness.Similarity is pleasing, therefore, whereas dissimilarity is odius'.Boethius (480-526) De Musica |
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There is expression that says that all art was modern, in one point in time. Process of reception of a 'new art' was always hard and history of any art is full of examples when some, at first scorned, art form has become recognised and valued. There is no surprise to me that same discussion is held here, the principal question beeing to define what is 'jazz jazz' music , in opposition to music that was created couple decades later and by opinions of some, does not deserve to be called by the same name. Setting or recognising the standards who could enable us to understand music better proved to be much harder, because the discussion became somehow irrational and its emphasis was never about the principles of music, neither about social or cutural era that influenced or shaped some particular form, instead the 'arguments' were drawn on basis of personal feelings and experiences. Even if one (or many) wants to declare that 'having soul' is the most important factor which will determine which music has a right to be called 'jazz jazz', I belleive that he owes us an explanation what 'soul' is, in music anyway. So far I have not read any such attempts. If this 'discussion' is going to continue I would certainly like that any attempt in 'proving' any point is concentrated on confronting the thoughts instead of persons. As for my opinion,on this subject, or better, I should say taste, if anyone cares, is that I prefer music that was created up untill lets say 1965. Later, maybe only if the style hasnt changed much, usually made by same protagonists. In the same time I am very curios to understand what someone very knowledgabe ( like Frg.and Leafr.) prefer about new expressions and why they value the idea behind the music more than its aestetchics (correct me if I am wrong) Also, I think, by learning and later perhaps knowing or recognising 'their point' can open the whole new world in appreciating the music that now stays beyond our understanding. https://youtu.be/Q3bbsDJWlXQ |
Orpheus, I have several Dave Pike albums, and I think I can say that I like him. 'Pike's Peak' you have, with Bill Evans, I think that one deserves to be in any decent jazz collection. For Bossa Nova Carnival I can only say that on that album Pike plays with Kenny Burell and Clark Terry, to me its a very nice and subtle album, with gentle melodies. https://youtu.be/_30XmNMsKvY As for 'Manhattan Latin', I had it for years, did not listen it much, but couple weeks ago I had some guests at home and played it and to my surprise, it was great, so much that I checked again who plays there...Dave Burns on trumpet (mentioned him before as one of 'great underrated' with C.Corea, Don Friedman among ohers. Here is the clip...there are two sides, faster and more mellow...here are two clips https://youtu.be/ZTfHn8Fx_K4https://youtu.be/ncBWglTCY7s'Jazz for jazz set' is his album that I had first, very happy sounding album,nothing pretentious, I could imagine people having a party, listening to that groovy music... Again, with ocasional bursts of Clark Terry muted trumpet... . https://youtu.be/uEWZQvqN7Ushttps://youtu.be/IAsNJfhNagk'Limbo Carnival' is with T.Flanagan, there are couple words that will tell you more under this clip... https://youtu.be/4fsxfmiFVDwhttps://youtu.be/4fsxfmiFVDwI am looking to buy one more his album, from that period. |
Speaking of french (now I read that he is Belgian, hope nobody will be offended) guitarists, Rene Thomas came to my mind. Here are couple of links of albums that I have, hope you will find it intersting. This one is with Stan Getz, its been said that was recorded as a one time meeting, from 1971.album 'Dynasty'.....here is the link /youtu.be/MWcRtztr35AOne more album, this time Rene Thomas Quintet https://youtu.be/O35l1eeWKmkAnother one, much earlier recorded, John Lewis with Sasha Distel on guitar,album is called 'Afternoon in Paris' https://youtu.be/9yufrYCYJNc |
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Well, its quite posssible that Orpheus had more than one friend whose music we have listened. If its organist, I think I know who he is and I am not sure if its polite for me to say? Anyway, this guy played with him ( with that organist) on one album and than got the chance to record his own album as a leader, made two, but did not became famous. Here is the link...Fred Jackson 'Hootin and Tootin'... https://youtu.be/eZKR_d7gHMUhttps://youtu.be/8khR_oqp0Oohttps://youtu.be/dS0mnaLAus8 |
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Orpheus, have you watched this movie? It certainly explains a lot of things behind some aspects of US economy. It is a not an action movie, in fact the trailer is not true to a real tempo of the film, which is very slow, patient, and the caracters are all in service of the story (or better understanding of it) https://youtu.be/LWr8hbUkG9sHowever, as it is a story about US economy, I am not sure am I allowed to comment on that, since I am European? As to your perception,nobody is saying that it is 'false', when you talk about work of some late masters, its just that you are fixed on one period and couple of styles, which is perfectly all right. (like I said, that is my favourite music as well) But in the same time, it seems to me that you refusing to except that any other music that was made later in time has an equal right to be called 'jazz' Now we are coming to a 'problematic' part. When you are asked to explain which elements of music are best describing the 'jazz' that you like, or what it is the thing that it makes you like it, you simply refer to it as a 'soul'. On the oher hand, the music that you dont like you simply call 'intellectual' or 'soulless' without further analysis of elements of its 'lackings' There is no need for so many harsh words, I guess Frog.or Leafr. could simply ignored some of the coments written here and continue to write about their favourite music. I can only speak for myself, but for example, when I hear somebody praisng Keith Jarret, without knowing the work of Evans, than I am sceptical about his musical taste and his knowledge in general. But, as we all have seen, Frogman is quite good in recognising the good music from the past (aldo he dont like some of my 'forgotten' ones) and somehow I am more inclined to trust him or his taste about some contemporary music after that. The fact that I still may not like that music does not mean that that music is not good, it is quite possible that I am not 'there' yet. I am sure that we all can agree that our music taste has changed during time. So, whats the problem? |
Rok, answer to your first question. I used Jarret Evans comparation as metaphore. Sometimes I meet people who 'listen jazz' and have lots of Ecm records, which is ok. But its been known to happen that those same people often have very strong opinions about artistic value of some performer, or about that music and its aesthetcs (which again is nothing wrong per se) but when I discover that their knowledge is limited to a very narrow time frame (usually the more recent one) I cant consider their opinion as a worthy, but just as expression of their taste. I guess that one cant play (or listen) jazz if does not know 'Body and soul'. Again, I used that line because here some 'new' music has been under heavy criticism, but the person (Frogman) who posted some of it, knows very well even the 'old' stuff and we cant play that card (limited knowledge) when he is keen to open some new windows. Its funny that I am acting as advocate to that 'new stuff' when in fact I am on constant search for long forgotten music and performers, but I am curios and I belleive that role of individual is to choose a dialectic method if we want to 'discover the truth'. Speaking of curiosty, I noticed that everyone likes Miles and Coltrane, up to a point. (Miles, for me, Prestige years and couple albums after) What if they would try to pursue some of you (us) that their later music has 'soul and beauty' as equal to their earlier work? Or that perhaps, they could not be tied to that simpler form of expressions? IMHO there are lot of intersting questions that jazz afc.could or should ask if they want to have better perspective on the subject, and we should welcome discussions, and not insist on uniform opinion or taste. As for your second question, I cant open those you tube clips. Maybe you could find some another? I will gladly share my thoughts . In the meantime here is one european artist (belgian, as inspector Poirot) Francy Boland (born 1929.) 'Playing with trio' from 1967. https://youtu.be/QyrARKhzsPghttps://youtu.be/ctL6coRgW8Ahttps://youtu.be/C4oCnGqZKg8 |
'We'd like to have you all join in with us on this one, and help us find the groove, by patting your feet, or popping your fingers, or clapping your hands, or shaking your heads, or shaking whatever else you want to shake... while we do a little thing we call "Filthy McNasty".
https://youtu.be/TTYtZa2XrDQ |
Rok, for better or worse, I read your posts. '
So we can say that there would be no Jazz and also no "European Classical Tradition" without our log beater in Africa. I will agree that Jazz is a eventual result of the first human attempt to make music. That would be about 55,000 years ago. I think that predates Europe, let along the "European Classical Tradition".
If I may ask, does this mean that you think that jazz has no influence from Classical music ?
Or do you mean that had other important influences as well? |
Like all people, musicians have been affected by the political, economic and social events of 20th century.The technological adavnces as well have brought music to larger audience than ever before, besides vastly increasing the range of music available. Can you just imagine the repertoary of recorded music, in oppose to past where one could here only live performed music? As early of 1904 music works have been recorded and radio broadcasts of live or recorded music began to reach large audience during the 1920s. Everything is conected,and there are so many influences to music, and jazz is not an exception. I dont know why that sound so strange to you, Rok and Orpheus? For example, if the events around WW2 did not make the largest migration of artists and intellectuals in history, from Europe to US, do you think that American musical culture would be the same today? After all, Stravinsky, Bartok, Schoenberg, Hindemith all went to States, later two taught in universities there. What about African American composers and performers? William Grant Still and his 'Afro American Symphony' ( from 1931) was the first composition by black composer to be performed by major American symphony orchestra. Its been said that he incorporated spirituals, ragtime and blues in his work. Is he the only one, that was influenced by many things? I doubt. Here is the link. https://youtu.be/4AkltZeVcJE |
