Jazz for aficionados

Acman3, if I had been there, I would have been overwhelmed as well. I've got several discs of Luc Ponty when he was in that bag, after this, I'll have to get that.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, I'm using HD Downloads to replace damaged LP's, but since you don't have LP's, forget about it.

Lorez Alexandria is a vocalist I don't believe we've covered, and I like her a lot. She has all the attributes of old school vocalists with no short comings to my ears. Here's Lorez:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qetIA9SoX6c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWXimvRssmQ

Enjoy the music.

I was fortunate to see this group in the old Caravan of Dreams in Ft. Worth. I was sitting about 3' in front of Di Meola. It was sort of overwhelming to the senses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygmboKbCxbs

You are right about Ammons. I have 'Boss Tenor' and 'Boss Tenors', which is Ammons with Sonny Stitt. The one with BEAN looks interesting. I hope it's still aval.

I don't have the SA8004. I have the SA8001 which does not have USB. How Is the USB involved in HD downloads? I do copy CD to USB memory stick for my car.

I was so concerned about CD players disappearing from newer Cars, but I now like the USB stick even better. I copy using the highest (cd) quality.

Your choice of 'alternate' music sounded 'nice'. Won't bother anyone. :)

Cheers

One can never have too much Gene Ammons, I can listen to his boss tenor all day long. Here are a few of my favorites by "jug".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XsuljkopC0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLKVsMuYoZA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwGj7gn-fdY

Enjoy the music.

Rok, I assume you're using the USB input on your Marantz SA8004?

*******You lost me with "The Wolf Man", that's the kind of blues I can live without********

That kind of blues is called 'The Blues' :)

Cheers

Rok, here's some of my alternative music;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYQVRTbIEmQ&feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXtMCVHDddI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD2CR1I4IuY

Enjoy the music.

Rok, my grandmother liked "Chopin", I heard her say it when I was very young. It was ages before I discovered "Chopin" and "Sho pan" were the same person. I liked him until he got a little too busy for me.

I saw Aretha live in Detroit, you can't go wrong with Aretha; just the sound of her voice floods me with memories of good times.

You lost me with "The Wolf Man", that's the kind of blues I can live without. One out of three ain't bad, when you consider that it was outside the jazz realm.

Discovering old jazz that I haven't heard before has been most fruitful for me. No current category of music that I'm into lately, but world music is my alternate choice.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, forget I ever mentioned HD Downloads. I had a problem that caused me to tell those people they were selling "snake oil", when the problem was in my computer and was not identified till after I called my "geek".

******It's called HD Downloads******

Does this involve computers? If it does, I will have to start at day one, step one. Like, Bill Gates was born on ..........

Cheers

Yesterday I was Planning to 'review' 'Miles at the Plugged Nickel', but after a few minutes decided I was not in the mood. I then decided to see what O-10 was so excited about, and put on Toshiko Akiyoshi. Was not in the mood for that either.

I ened up with:
Murray Perahia: Chopin Etudes
Aretha Franklin: The Delta Meets Detroit
Howlin' Wolf: The Chess Box

What do you guys listen to when it's not Jazz?

As the good book says: 'Man cannot live on Bop alone'.

Cheers

Hey you guys, Rok, Frogman, and Leersfool, I've just discovered something that's absolutely fantastic, It's called HD Downloads. It's been fantastic for me anyway, and that's because I only use it for records I already have; that way I'm sure of the music. There is no better way to replace scratched vinyl.

I posted a thread on the Analog forum titled HD Down Load compared to Analog that pretty much covers everything. I got absolutely unbelievable results from "Soul Brothers" by Ray Charles and Milt Jackson. That HD Download had the "nuance" I mentioned on this thread that was lacking on the CD. Check it out.

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, learsfool, and Rok, the reason they can never get it right, or get it wrong a lot of times, is because they are working on two different sounds, one for who ever is on the stage, and another for whoever is far out into the audience. When they get the one for the audience right, people on the stage began to complain that it's wrong.

I've been there before. If the people on the stage realize it doesn't have to be right for them, they can get it right for the audience.

Enjoy the music.

Isochronism:

******I came across this gem: Blue Bacharach******

Nice CD, but I have three Dionne Warrick CDs. All this sounds very very familiar now.

Cheers

Adding to Learsfool's definition: reverb time is how long it takes for sound to die away after it is produced. Because frequency and how loud the sound was to begin with will affect reverb time, acousticians set "60 db below the loudness level of the original sound" as the measuring point.

Learsfool:

Thanks for the info.

Cheers

Hi Rok - to answer your questions about reverb in concert halls is not necessarily easy. What I assume they mean by those particular numbers is how long a chord, say the last chord of a big piece, will ring in the hall AFTER the musicians have actually stopped playing it. Reverb is a very necessary element of a good hall - too little and it will sound dead, too much is also undesirable. There are way too many architectural/acoustical factors that go into it for me to feel comfortable discussing it in great detail.

Basically, though, the acousticians do have this down to a science, or think they do, anyway. In general, you want the sound to go out towards the audience, but you also want some of it coming back. And you also ideally want the musicians to be able to hear each other well across the stage, too. There are some great halls where it sounds amazing in the audience chamber, yet the musicians have a hard time hearing across the stage. There are also some that sound great in the audience chamber, but too much noise also comes back from there to the stage. There are few that get everything absolutely right, and these are not necessarily the relatively newer ones. Symphony Hall in Boston is definitely one of the very best, as is Carnegie Hall in New York, to name two old school examples that still sound just as good or better than anything built lately. But, just like with audiophile equipment, there will be huge disagreements about which halls sound the best.

I came across this gem: Blue Bacharach
"A Cooler Shaker" (Blue Note)
A compilation of covers in the Jazz/Blues style.

John Hart Trio "Scenes from A Song"
John (guitar) does a very nice rendition of the song, Both Sides Now - Joni Mitchell. This is an instrumental album but...
What a great lyricist she is :)

Final inquiry of the day.

Who / what determines the size and instrumental makeup of a Jazz group. Big Bands excluded. i.e. Oscar Peterson has a trio, Cannonball a quintet etc.... How and by whom is that determined?

Cheers

Frogman: Great info on, and analysis of, Coleman Hawkins. I have a lot of his stuff, but not him playing Body & Soul. How can that be?

Cheers

Article from BBC Music magazine:

Concert Halls of America. Symphony Hall, Boston.

The hall was built in 1900, the architects hired a physics professor from Harvard to perfect the acoustics. The result was a Hall with a reverberation time of 1.9 to 2.1 seconds and a shape that focuses the sound towards the audience.

The article goes on to say, that the hall is one of the best in America and the World.

My questions are, what is reverb, in a concert hall and what is the significance of the reverb times listed? There was no context given. Close to perfection? What is perfection? Can anyone talk about this?

Cheers

Frogman, "Mingus Ah Um" certainly works for me. He was so far ahead of his time.

Enjoy the music.

I love "Bean". He was the first great jazz saxophone player. And what a sound! He could sound huge and robust, and sensual and velvety all at the same time. Eventhough his style could sound a little "dated" depending on the context, he was one of the few players of that era that could more than hold his own with the younger more "progressive" players that he recorded with over his fifty year career.

"Sandra's Blues" is classic blues-ballad playing and showcases his wonderful tone and swagger. "Close Your Eyes" is the winner of the two. The rhythm section really clicks on this cut with a beautifully light touch that still cooks like crazy. Notice Eddie Jones' lithe playing. He really moves the tune forward with lines that cover a wide range on the instrument, as opposed to the monotonous lines within a narrow range (with "thuddy" tone) that Sam Jones plays on "Somethin Else". Connie Kay sounds amazing and there is a much greater sense of interaction within the rhythm section. Great stuff!

The importance of Coleman Hawkins cannot be overstated. His solo on his classic recording of "Body And Soul" is one of those solos (Coltrane's solo on "Giant Steps" is another) that young jazz saxophone players study. It literally changed the landscape of the music. The traditionalists criticized that solo (and Bean's improvising, in general) as having a lot of "wrong notes". He was one of the first players that reached beyond the very "inside" colors of the harmonies. The truth is that most players at the time simply could not navigate the harmonic complexity of a tune like "Body And Soul" and would not make all the changes; instead, they "generalized" the harmonic changes as opposed to clearly outlining each and every harmony as Hawkins did. Houston Person on "Moonlight In Vermont" is an example of this "generalization" and not making all the changes. One thing is being able to play over a blues with a nice comfortable, predictable, and sparse harmonic progression; another is being able to navigate a tune with up to four harmonic changes per measure (one per beat) and still make musical sense. Hawkins was one of the first that could do that.

Orpheus, my intention was not to shoot down "Somethin Else"; it's an excellent record. But, when something is referred to as "the best" it better standup to the very highest scrutiny.

I don't think I could pick a "best" jazz record; jazz can be too many different things in too many different styles. Besides, what criteria are we going to use to define "best record"? I am not sure how one would compare (for instance) Dave Brubeck's "Time Out" to Coltrane's "Blue Train" or to Herbie Hancock's "Headhunters". All three are great records that certainly belong in a "greatest" list. Having said all that, if someone put a gun to my head and said I HAD to pick one, I would probably say Mingus "Ah Um" for it's great playing and "time capsule" potential in that if someone with zero knowledge of jazz would be able to get more of a sense of the scope and history of jazz is than from any single record that I can think of.

Jazz on a Sunday Afternoon:

Hank Mobley -- Soul Station
with / Art Blakey, Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers

Great Blue Note Hard Bop. One of the most over looked and underrated Tenor players in Jazz. I love his tone.

Not an innovator, but a top tier Tenor player. A mainstay at Blue Note. I guess that's the down side of anointing all these 'geniuses'. A great player like Mobley sort of gets lost in the shuffle.

Great Rhythm section and excellent song selection.
Try it, you won't be disappointed.

Cheers.

Rok, if you live in the middle of Texas, you wouldn't have to go too far. There is a little bit happening in both Austin and San Antonio, but there is better happening in the DFW area, and some in Houston as well. Try Googling jazz clubs in all of those cities.

Rok, "Mingus' Oh Yeah" could very well work for me as "pick of the day". I've got just about everything by Mingus, including that.

Enjoy the music.

*********Rok, you need to get out more often*********

When you live in the middle of Texas, that's easier said than done. Nearest Jazz to this place is probably Kansas City!!

I was really Impressed with Potter and Holland. I knew of Holland.

Cheers

*******Rok and Frogman, I would like your critical and expert analysis of these tunes*********.

I could find nothing to fault. Great stuff. One of my favorite Tenors, Coleman Hawkins. When you get a lineup of this statue, and everyone shows up, there is nothing to fault. Esp if the tune has the word 'blues' in the title.
I see the CD is still aval on Amazon. I put it in my waiting to order thingy.

The Frogman can give us a more expert view.

Cheers

O-10:
I could not even decide which is the best CD in my collection. I would not even try to name the best album in Jazz history.

My simple test is this: how often do you listen to any particular CD. That's the one you like the most. Is it the BEST, could or could not be.

What / Who do I listen to most often? Mingus, Monk, Oscar Peterson, Louis Armstrong, Horace Silver, Lee Morgan, Cannonball, the most, and many others to a lesser degree.

The problem with naming a best is that you are stuck with it. Can I change everyday?

Today, my candidate is Mingus' Oh Yeah.

Cheers

****And the sax player! Where has this guy been hiding all my life!****

Rok, you need to get out more often :-)

Today's Discovery:

THE MONTEREY QUARTET -- Live at the 2007 Monterey Jazz Festival

with / Dave Holland (bass), Gonzalo Rubalcaba (piano), Chris Potter (tenor sax), Eric Harland (drums)

This is the natural progression of BeBop. They call it Modern Jazz. No matter what it's called, this is an excellent example of great Jazz. The Frogman and O-10 should just love this. They being so progressive. :)

I was amazed. I have had this CD for over three years, and have just now got around to really listening to it. It blew my mind. Fantastic!!

Each player contributed two tunes to the program. Rubalcaba's '50' was my favorite, but they are all great.

They sound so different from most groups. They all play at the same time. It's like all four players solo at the same time, but it's all so cohesive. These are really good players. Great writing.

Holland's bass playing is just awesome. And the sax player! Where has this guy been hiding all my life! The drummer? Another new to me, player. Amazing! We all know about Rubalcaba, just his usual brilliant self.

If you call yourself a Jazz lover, you have to have this! So, if you ain't got it, git it!

The sad thing is, they just came together for this one gig. We won't hear them together again. Another reason to get it. If nothing else, try to youtube '50'.

Cheers

Off one of the best recordings last year. Mike Barone Big Band.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WQKTOMD8zM

I like 'birdland'. I have it by Quincy Jones and a few more people. All my Weather Report stuff is on LP, but I think I have this number by them.

I did youtube it. The guitar player looked like Chuck Conners as he appeared in 'Geronimo' That was a big turn off, so I killed the sound and went back to Monk's 'Brilliant Corners'.

Birdland is a nice tune. Just need some serious people to play it. At least on video. I realize Joe Zawinul wrote it. He used to play with Cannonball. How the mighty have fallen.

Thanks for the input.

Cheers

Rok and Frogman, I would like your critical and expert analysis of these tunes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yII6IZo4eY8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1LZUa8prG4

Enjoy the music.

Best jazz album is too hard to nail down . . .
But, anyone else really dig the song 'Birdland' by Weather Report? It's got a groove that just hooks you in !

Frogman, now that you and Rok done shot my best album down, I'm waiting for yours. Not that I'm looking to shoot it down, but add it to my collection.

While that LP doesn't sound so hot now, it was "Somthin Else" when it came out.

Enjoy the music.

My 'special' tune is 'boy what a night' from Lee Morgan's CD 'Sidewinder'. Also my favorite on that CD.

Cheers

O-10

You won't believe this. I clicked on the Toshiko youtube thingy at the same time that I was listening to the cannonball CD 'dizzy's business' on my stereo rig. So the same music was coming from the stereo and the computer. They were both playing 'Dizzy's Business'!! Thought I was in one of those Star Trek situations for a moment. Small Jazz world. :)

I have the Toshiko CD desert Lady / Fantasy. Guess I'll have to give it a listen now.

Cheers

*******"what was the best jazz album ever"***********

O-10, That is an impossible task. The greatest Jazz album would have to be a complilation. A 100 CD box set. :)

This morning I just reached for something to listen to. Happened to be 'Kansas City Shout" Basie, with Cleanhead Vinson and Joe Turner on vocals.

Now, if I could only have one Jazz CD and I had to choose between Basie and Somethin' Else and Kind Of Blue. Guess what? It's Basie everytime!! None of that Muted pablum!!

Does that mean the Basie is a 'Better" CD than the other two? Nope. This Basie album would probably not appear on any 'Best' list.

Therein lies the problem or trying to say ONE Album is the best ever.

You gonna leave off Ahmad Jamal's 'Poinciana', Song for My Father, Swiss Movement, Tons of Mingus and Monk. You see the point. And we have not even gotten to some real heavyweights.

But we can try. All in fun of course. I will submit my candidate for you aficionados to trash errrr.. I mean to critique, later today. Cleanhead just said "got up this morning, got me a jug, and laid back down" Gotta pay attention. ahahahahahah

Cheers

Rok, and Frogman, Toshiko Akiyoshi's best Bop, can you dig it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BpQcwe4ncs

Enjoy the music.

Rok, and Frogman, sometime there are other emotional events attached to music that make it so special. Although I've had this album since it came out, after your evaluation, is the first time I've looked at, or listened to it "objectively". Each time I listened to it in the past, there was always instant recall of glorious events swirling around the music. Now I realize those events affected my love for this music.

Enjoy the music.

"Somethin Else" has never been a favorite record. Being a Cannonball junkie, I have owned this record for many years and have always had mixed feelings about it; it should be great, but comes up short of me.

I agree with Rok's overall take. Clearly, this is excellent jazz playing. How could it not be? But still......

For me, there are some problems with this date that keep it out of the "great" category. The biggest one is the rhythm section. I agree with Rok on this point, but disagree that the main culprit is Hank Jones. I think the main problem is Sam Jones; I can't believe how monotonous his playing is on most of the cuts. His walking lines usually stay within a narrow range, and his intonation is questionable. A close second is Art Blakey, IMO. I confess that, eventhough I have been a fan of his bands, I have never been a huge fan of Art Blakey's playing. I find it is not rhythmically incisive enough at times, and a little sloppy. I think that the rhythm section limits the soloists and the recording, overall, lacks the fire that Cannonball is known for. Listen to "One For Daddy-O", the rhythm section actually starts to slow down a little bit about 3/4 of the way through the tune. Notice how when they return to the melody, it doesn't have as much pep as in the very beginning of the tune. In general, there is a sense that the rhythm section is not reacting to the soloists as they improvise and are not contributing to changing the landscape.

Rok brought up the issue of the producer. A couple of thoughts:

First of all the, influence of Miles should not be underestimated. It could be argued that this is a Miles date; he picked almost all the tunes on the record. BTW, the voice heard saying "is that what you want Alfred?" is that of Miles, not Cannonball. Two observations: it was Miles asking the question, not Cannonball, the supposed leader of the date. This supports my point about Miles' influence. Then, why is Miles asking that at all? Because the producer does, in fact, have a lot of power over the goings on. It would not be surprising if the issue was that the producer wanted the tune a little faster or slower, different groove etc., and they finally got it on that particular take.

Still, a lot of great moments

Rok, since neither one of those albums was the best ever, what was the best jazz album ever? Put up or shut up, nothing in between.

Enjoy the music.

********I think that we sometimes like to think that playing jazz, being a vehicle for free expression, is free of any constraints. While it is obviously true that improvisation offers the player a lot more creative freedom than, say, a classical performance (duh!), there are still fairly strict guidelines*********

Frogman, I agree with all you said, but, you are preaching to the choir. Now, if you could only, have had a word with Ornette Coleman, Anthony Braxton, and all the other 'Free' Jazzers of this world. Think of all the aural pain you could have prevented! :)

Cheers

KIND OF BLUE

Again we have Julian and Miles, but this time with better backing. The rhythm section was much better and more involved.

The addition of a Tenor sax was good. And a tenor sax played by John Coltrane was ever better.

Much stronger piano playing from Bill Evans and Wynton Kelly. The Bass player, Paul Chambers, was involved also.

I also felt the song selection was better than on "somethin' Else".

Again no real cooking numbers. 'All Blues' was the best tune IMO. More dynamic range on all the numbers than those on "somethin' Else'. The tenor helped.

Best Jazz album ever? No. Again, not even close.

With some much great music by so many great artists it's way too soon to give that honor to one of these two. Hell, we have not even talked about Mingus, Monk, Coltrane, Ella or Armstrong etc..... You get my drift, there is just too much / many still to be heard.

The search goes on.
But at least we now know at least two records that are not the best ever. That's a start.

Let me quickly add, IMHO. That'll stop those Sabre Tooths in their tracks!!

Cheers

SOMETHIN' ELSE

Basically a tit for tat between Cannoball and Miles. The rhythm section was not even there.

Both Miles and Julian played beautifully, but a lot of muted trumpet and alto sax needs a little more. After all we are talking the BEST ever.

There were no really cooking numbers. On the best ever Jazz album, there just has to be.

The rhythm section was a big letdown. Big time names, but they didn't play up to their rep. Esp weak was the piano. They only showed signs of life on the last number 'Alison's Uncle', but since that number was not on the LP, it does even count.

And last but not least. After playing ended on 'One for Daddy-O' you could hear Julian say "is that what you wanted alfred?" Another example of those egotistical producers making sure they are recognized for enternity!! Trying to give the impression they are in 'charge'. That they are responsible for the great playing. I hate that crap!! That should have been cut before the final pressing.

This would by itself disqualify this record from best ever.

Best Album ever? No. Not even close. Not even the best Cannonball Album.

Kind of Blue? see following post.

Cheers

Frogman, casting "Moonlight in Vermont" aside, I really liked Houston Person and Joey D. Instead of picturing a snow covered Vermont, I could picture a table close to Joey D's organ; man that would be ever so mellow, and Houston's tenor has such a golden tone that I could enjoy it all night long, right there live on the set.

Rok's just fooling with us, he got it a long time ago.

Enjoy the music.