2. amps-preamps
  3. 175407-20253

Let me end the Premp/Amplifier sound debate ...

I'm old enough to remember Julian Hersch from Audio magazine and his very unscientific view that all amplifiers sounded the same once they met a certain threshold.  Now the site Audio Science Review pushes the same.

I call these views unscientific as some one with a little bit of an engineering background as well as data science and epidemiology.  I find both of these approaches limited, both in technology used and applied and by stretching the claims for measurements beyond their intention, design and proof of meaning.

Without getting too much into that, I have a very pragmatic point of view.  Listen to the following three amplifier brands:

  • Pass Labs
  • Luxman
  • Ayre

If you can't hear a difference, buy the cheapest amplifier you can.  You'll be just as happy.  However, if you can, you need to evaluate the value of the pleasure of the gear next to your pocket book and buy accordingly.  I don't think the claim that some gear is pure audio jewelry, like a fancy watch which doesn't tell better time but looks pretty.  I get that, and I've heard that.  However, rather than try to use a method from Socrates to debate an issue to the exact wrong conclusion, listen for yourself.

If you wonder if capacitors sound different, build a two way and experiment for yourself.  Doing this leaves you with a very very different perspective than those who haven't. You'll also, in both cases, learn about yourself.  Are you someone who can't hear a difference?  Are you some one who can? What if you are some one who can hear a difference and doesn't care?  That's fine.  Be true to yourself, but I find very little on earth less worthwhile than having arguments about measurements vs. sound quality and value. 

To your own self and your own ears be true.  And if that leads you to a crystal radio and piezo ear piece so be it.  In my own system, and with my own speakers I've reached these conclusions for myself and I have very little concern for those who want to argue against my experiences and choices. 

 

erik_squires
4afsanakhan
134 posts
 

Eric, great post and worthy of discussion.

By the way Todd, very nice setup. I’m sure you enjoy many listening sessions. By the way I had the Yamaha ZX-9 many years ago and gave it to my son. It’s a fine-sounding receiver.

On Amir and ASR, I respect what he is trying to do. Amir’s opinions are worth listening to and he has some very good points, but many ASR forum members are just annoying. Speaking from my personal experience, I believe the measurements we use as standard do not tell the whole story. Not at all.

In my humble opinion, I cannot understand how any audiophiles obsessively build their sound systems over the years and still believe that all amplifiers, when level matched, essentially sound the same. I find that contention wildly wrong. Without going deep into how different topologies sound different (to me, they most assuredly do), each amplifiers model is capable in different ways, with strengths and weaknesses. Some are extremely fast and ‘airy’ , whereas others are more rich, and seductive. Some throw massive enveloping soundstages and present as a complete sound-picture you look on from the outside, while others focus more on immediacy and ‘I am here-ness’. Some are more laid back with a slightly recessed perspective, while others are very forward.

My believe is, that as technology advances, the higher-end products are becoming more similar in sound, being better able to approach the ‘absolute sound’.

For example, a Devialet Expert Pro sounds different than a Parasound Halo, or a NuForce, or Audio Research Classic 150 mono-blocks, or a bridged pair of Mark Levinson 27.5 and so on and so forth.

Pre-amps and Cables; same thing.

asctim
491 posts
 

Nice videos. I think I hear what I associate with tubes right at the start of one of those videos with the cymbal crash. I'm generally happier with the solid state sound but it'd be nice to be able to switch over to tubes with the flick of a switch if I felt in the mood.

mas426's avatar
mas426
16 posts
 

If you doubt there are sonic differences between amplifiers, both preamps and power amps, A/B a few. If you cannot hear any differences you are probably not going to be affected by these choices. But to me, Amp and Preamp selection, next to speaker selection, make the the biggest difference in sound of any system I have ever heard. So no need to chase amps if you hear little or no differences. Geez, I wish it was that easy.

billzame
69 posts
 

I don't remember what Julian Hirsch said about amplifiers but AudioScienceReview does not say that all amplifiers sound the same or that they measure the same.  

eworkflow
10 posts
 

antigring2:
... Any well sorted system is the result of multiple fine tuning steps extracting maximum synergy from its components. This is again totally ignored when putting individual units onto the ‘scientific’ test benches.

Yep, thank you. This thread or any other discussion that offers any type of "absolute" statements misses the fundamental point: human cognition is a subjective field and not objective science. Otherwise, let’s start arguing right now about the best novel book ever published... (I suspect, many here wouldn’t miss that opportunity, LOL)

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