My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
No worries and I’m sure you mean well. But put it this way, you probably wouldn’t take very seriously the medical advice of a first year med school student advising you how to treat one of your patients. I know your preferences work for you, but I give them less weight than even my hypothetical. No offense. I wouldn’t expect anyone to follow my suggestions either, which is why I never offer any…… |
I just connected the Mephisto solos and the VAC Master after being unplugged for a week and from a dead cold start, 30 seconds into it, I want to close this thread and my youtube channel. It is just F@CK!NG SPECTACULAR. It does not matter what song it is, what decade, good, bad, etc, It will blow your mind. I can’t believe how amazing this is guys. Just put it into context, I matched these 2 components going by my gut feeling and based on my own trials and I NAILED IT. The cheapest linestage I’ve had here in the last 6 months and I can’t believe how amazing it is. You want air? musicality? resolution? huge soundstage 3d? spaciousness? It is all there.. I plan to record tomorrow once everything is completely warmed up and uploaded a few videos later this week. Stay tuned... i will be using some $800 tubes on this linestage (recommended by a dealer friend of mine) which are said to be leaps and bounds superior to the factory tubes. |
kren0006, Sorry if you think I am intruding. I'm just offering suggestions based on what you reveal about your preferences. I believe that Mike Fremer likes what you do (Wilson for speakers, electronics with definition and some sweetness), so you can follow him closely. He found the VAC 452 IQ tops in almost all sonic criteria. He thought PS Audio Stellar M 1200 monos for $6K offered best value. The M1200 uses a modified module based on the IceEdge module of my Rouge, but has a tube input stage which offers sweetness. The LSA Voyager GaN is probably comparable, for only $3K. You can try the M1200 for no risk, and the LSA with only a restocking fee risk. |
"I agree - wondering if choices would be the same if we listen in-room vs YT." Very valid question. I thought about that too. Jay is hearing way more being in the room than we'll ever hear over YT, not matter how good of a headphone system or playback through your main rig is. There's no doubt.
I too could care less which was which. I simply picked what I like the best. |
@kren0006 LOL With all due respect, not looking for tips on my purchasing decisions. I can handle that myself. |
Kren0006, Right. If you were willing to spend the money on the VAC 450's and preamp, you probably would be happy with that. However, for your budget, I suggested alternatives, even the LSA Voyager, all of which you would still have to audition at home to be sure. Keep up your open mind about how any technology and even low price could give satisfaction to obtain the sound you want. |
I can only speak for myself, but - and I mentioned this at the time - I couldn't have cared less about my ability to guess which was SS and which was tubes. That was not the point. The point was to pick which sounded the best, irrespective of the technology, and hopefully consistently choose the same setup. Maybe some are dismayed that they picked a technology that they didn't expect to, but not me. I'm actually kinda pumped that I picked the tubes, because that's an interesting learning point for me and probably something I'll pivot to down the road. Some people here get too wrapped up in gear stereotypes, assuming that there is no possible way that tubes could have better bass control or better clarity or whatever than top-of-line solid state. That's unfortunate. This test showed me that WC's tube setup had better bass control that the top-of-line tubes, which I would not have thought possible but having honestly taken the test with an open mind must now accept and embrace. |
I’m really kind of surprised 😮 some people here got it wrong with my Bluetooth earphones Yamaha EP-E70A Wireless And Sony WI-1000X listen on my iPhone 13 Pro max it was like day and night especially on the bass control I even comment on YouTube videos that if my picks are not solid state then I’m going to sell all my gear and buy tube set up |
@grey9hound I analyzed the 3 videos the same way you did. I couldn't tell by keying in on the bass through youtube and my playback system so I concentrated on soundstage, tone and reverberation time. I picked the Soulution / Gryphon presentation every time although to be honest I thought I was picking the VAC system. Those Mephisto Solos are really something. |
I did not say Bloated soundstage. Please lighten up and stop trying to analyze every word we say and drawing conclusions from it. I said nothing about Bass. I did not find the bass of the VAC to be more solid state sounding and the Bass of the Gryphon to be more tube-like. Fuller bass does not mean less control. It just means it is somewhat elevated in that frequency range.
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pokey77, I'll add that whatever distance from your ears you try with the cups on the headphone cushions, varying the amount of air openness affects the tonal balance. If you use 4-6 cups which surround more of the cushions than 2-3 cups of the same size, there will be less air and more of a closed in boxy feeling. Most of us realize that speakers have less detail than headphones in close proximity to the ear drums, but we prefer the open environment of speakers which better approximate the live music experience. So you can experiment with the number of cups and distance, to better simulate the natural listening experience in an environment. In fact, Stax calls their headphones, "ear speakers." |
Grey9hound, Regarding huge soundstages, I don't like bloated soundstages and fat images, which is like magnifying a low quality picture to reveal larger but fuzzier images. My ideal is to have higher resolution in all freq, which increases ambient detail at all positions within the soundstage. By revealing more low level detail at the farthest reaches of the soundstage, the soundstage is enlarged/expanded naturally, not through artificial magnification of low quality. HF extension is important to achieve the expanded soundstage. Of course, we don't want upper midrange/lower HF distortion or hifi-ish brightness. Many people have added super tweeters which don't cause tonal aberrations but exhibit more airiness and enlarge the natural soundstage. |
kren0006, Agree. In particular, on video 3, we both found the bass slightly tubby for what was later revealed as S 725 + Mephisto. There are a few ways to describe this. Tubby, looser, less controlled, fuller. For what was revealed as VAC, I found the string bass to be more plucky, and lighter with less body but more control. The interesting thing is that these bass qualities of the VAC are closer to typical SS amps, whereas typical tube electronics tend to have the bass qualities we found for S 725 + Mephisto. That explains how grey9hound consistently preferred the S 725 + Mephisto, which had the characteristics he likes about his tube electronics. Since you preferred the VAC for all 3 videos, you might consider VAC 200 IQ monos for $30K vs comparable ARC tube amps. Your top choice of Luxman is probably the best of all, since it combines the best aspects of SS and some sweetness of tubes. I still think you should audition the LSA Voyager GaN at $3K, which has these general qualities. Don't discount the LSA class D just because you didn't like my Rouge class D, an older module. Use the LSA with a good passive control unit with a good volume control such as Luminous (or Luminance?) as used by mrdecibel, or your present preamp. Another important lesson is that the only true way to evaluate anything is to use it in your home system for a period of time. I have made mistakes trying to A/B things at dealers and friend's homes in their good systems, let alone YT videos. |
The huge soundstage of the Gryphon/Solution is actually one of the reasons that I thought it was Tubes. I just did not want to say that, because I thought that was my secret to Identifying the VAC. Tubes are known to give a Huge Soundstage as compared to Solid State. It turns out that Gryphon/ Solution gives a Huge Soundstage also...Even bigger than the VAC. It fooled me for sure 😮
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My conclusions from the exercise are the following. Prelims: As I indicated, I focused on what I determined initially to be the one most disparate sonic characteristic between the presentations, which for me was bass control. I chose not based on fullness or amount of bass, but on quality of bass, which for me meant tightness and control, and lack of tubbiness or looseness in the bass. Each time, tubby bass presentation was the losing presentation for me. I indicated that as the reason for choice on at least two maybe all three vids, and others concurred with reasoning. I did not struggle with the choice at all on Vid 1 or 2. Vid 3 was little tougher but only took two listens. Not too difficult. Assumptions: Because of this narrow criteria and the reputations involved, I assumed that I was choosing SS.
Results: I had no difficulty choosing a consistent setup. 3 for 3 (or two for two on matching to a baseline if you prefer, but same difference under the limitations of trial)and I was fairly confident I hadn’t cross-selected. There is only a 12.5% chance I’d randomly have chosen those three choices based on my selection criteria, so that plus the relative ease with which I was able to choose (just one listen for two vids, two for third), allows me to virtually entirely discount any randomness in trial (for the level of precision we are dealing with here - this isn’t drug testing it’s audio hobby preference screening). As such, I must conclude either that VAC has better bass control than Gryphon/Soulution to my preferences, or that YT and/or my laptop/headphone setup is worthless as a comparison medium. Actually it wouldn’t be merely worthless, which would be random, it would be worse than worthless (actively misleading?) as it led me definitively to that conclusion. Anyway, gotta be one or other under constraints of exercise, I reckon |
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Jay, I don't know what you mean by synergy. I'll just repeat my question--"What don't you like about S 725 + VAC amp? My speculation--is this combo too bright or "in your face" for you? Is the VAC preamp + Mephisto more laidback but with the bass power you like?" I'm just trying to understand what sound you like best, so I can get the most out of your evaluations. Impedance mismatches are common between a tube preamp with its high output impedance and low input impedance of some SS amps. But the S 725 has a low output impedance which would be compatible with almost any power amp. If the ratio of input impedance of the amp, divided by the output impedance of the preamp is over 10, you are OK from a technical point of view. |
pokey77, I have several top headphones--AKG 1000 and 240, Beyerdynamic 880. Any of these reveal much more bass information and extension than the computer speakers, but I find the headphone bass overwhelming. The music sounds like an elephant dancing. If I use several 50 cc cups around the edges of the phones to get my ears 1-2" away, I get a reasonably good tonal balance, although this is a crude solution. The AKG 1000 is an interesting open design where you can vary the distance from your ears to the transducers, adjusting the bass to your preference. |
Jay, I listened to your final assessment again and re-read Mike Fremer's S-phile review of the VAC 452 IQ monos. There was a clear majority of listeners here who preferred the SS combo over the VAC on all 3 videos. Since most listeners here, esp grey9hound prefer warm sound over typical analytical SS, this suggests that your SS combo was perceived by this majority as warmer than the VAC. Fremer wrote that his VAC was highly detailed and delicate, not at all like typical classic tube sound. His ref SS amp, the Dartzeel, had more power and grunt in the bass, where his VAC was "polite." Also, the post on this page by runwell suggests that Audio Research is a more typical example of tube sound, whereas the extraordinary detail of VAC leans more to typical SS sound, with a bit of classic tube sweetness. All this suggests that the VAC vs S 725/Mephisto mono comparison is best viewed as applying to those products only, and not as a generalized assessment of tubes vs SS. An interesting comparison for tube lovers would be the lower power VAC 200IQ monos for $30K vs ARC tube amps for a comparable price. Both would offer some sweetness, with that VAC perhaps offering more delicate detail and transient sparkle in the manner of some excellent SS. What don't you like about S 725 + VAC amp? My speculation--is this combo too bright or "in your face" for you? Is the VAC preamp + Mephisto more laidback but with the bass power you like? |
I guess I'm in the minority. I voted as follows: Video 1 = 2 Video 2 = 2 Video 3 = 1 - This was a tougher call because I like some things the SS does but overall I like the Tubes as they are a bit more musical and seductive. The SS have more leading edge but can bite a bit in the vocals. Now, this is me listening through a laptop with AKG K533 Pro headphones. I make no assumption I'm anywhere close to what Jay is listening to in his room. But, it is also fairly easy to hear the difference between Tube and SS gear here. Not sure I'd pick the same in person though. For those who think they can't hear a difference, get a good pair of headphones and listen and you will indeed hear differences. |
@viber6 Thank you for the compliments. I must admit that if I did not use my audio system with Tidal to compare tracks, I could have been fooled by some of the presentations. The first time I listened to video 1, I did not use to Tidal and initially thought that I was listening to the VAC setup, since the voice of Chantal Chamberland track 'I put a spell on you' was really present. Once I compared tracks with my SS gear at same acoustic levels, I realized that the presence in the voice/huge soundstage in presentation 1, was part of the mixing decision process and concluded that I was listening to the Gryphon setup, since very close to my gear. On video 2, I really favored presentation 1 (Gryphon) since it basically sounded like my gear. Very dynamic guitar strings on presentation 1, when compared to presentation 2. On video 3, I had to playback the tracks at least 3 times before concluding it was also SS. I tought the soundstage/voice in presentation 2 (Gryphon) was closer to my SS gear than presentation 1. |
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@jays_audio_lab Please let us know what tubes are in your VAC pre. |
Congrats to dasign for being correct in all 3 videos on both the ID of SS and consistency in his preference for the SS. Congrats to kren0006 for being consistent in his preference for tubes, although he and I both thought the slightly tubby bass of #2 on video 3 indicated that #2 was tubes, when it was actually SS. Grey9hound did a diligent job in discovering that video 1 had a significant volume mismatch. Since he likes warmer sound from most classic tube electronics and selects tube brands and dac chips with that type of sound, it is surprising that he consistently chose the SS on all 3 videos. I made mistakes in the ID of 2 out of 3 videos, and I was inconsistent in my preferences for SS or VAC. What may explain all these disparities? We all agreed that both presentations were close, and the fact that Jay says that in his room, the differences are very significant, implies that YT videos are unreliable in telling the true differences that only Jay can appreciate. Perhaps dasign listened through his dedicated audio system with precise volume matching, which enabled him to be the most consistent listener here. It seems like VAC is one of the finest examples of tube technology. At more modest price levels, tubes may have a much larger gap in performance than similarly priced SS. I don't expect to find modestly priced tube electronics that offer the clarity of similarly priced SS. I also learned that these difficult A/B shootouts cannot be relied on as much as Jay's verbal descriptions of what he hears in his room. I still think that larger differences such as between speakers can be meaningfully demonstrated on these videos. I'll search for links of Jay's videos using his XLF and current Focal speakers on the same songs. Thanks Jay for the experience. |
@jays_audio_lab Nice videos. I’m not sure anyone can come to conclusions based on the fact that there are a number of variables that still should be taken into consideration before generally claiming that ss is the winner, or tubes are the winner. Those variables are the synergy that the gear has with your speakers, the cabling ( which could favor one type of gear vs another) and many other aspects ( room, tube type etc). You did mention that you do not know how KT150’s would sound, as an example. This is a very good point, as I believe that the results would probably sway a number of folks. VAC gear has a particular sound, some like, some not, same as your Gryphon gear. I think you can say this, in your room, with your set up, this is what a VAC tube system sounds like, and this is what a Gryphon/ Soolution set up sounds like, with the particular pieces of music that you chose..and nothing much more than that. My point, a generalization about the sound of tube gear vs. ss gear at this level really cannot be had from your videos. What people prefer on the Youtube video and with their listening preference attached to your particular set-ups, then yes...a preference can be attained. BTW, you mention a mix of Gryphon ss amps and the VAC preamp, I can easily see why that would sound very good...as IME tube preamps are usually where the ’goodness’ of tubes is at..vs tube amps ( if that makes sense). So, with the VAC preamp and the ss Gryphon amp you are probably getting the best of both worlds. Now, here’s something to try, use the Soolution 725 preamp and the VAC amps...;0) |
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Holy crap, a lot of activity over the past 3 days! Hats off to Jay for giving us something really compelling to dig into! I have been so busy I have only skimmed the posts since mid week and just now had a chance to listen to third video. Here is the best I got. I think Ron really hit nail on head with his summary that at this level of gear that more the defining factor of which system is preferable has more to do with recording than with tube vs. solid state. I have almost no confidence that I know which is which. Or even from video to video…. I can guess but it is nothing more than a gut feeling guess. On video 1 and 3 I hear something that doesn’t sound quite right on presentation 2 and presentation 1 respectively. On video 2, I think I hear that same characteristic but it makes the recording sound better to me…. But I am splitting atoms at this point. Kren, I agree both sound great. But my final choice of preferences is: video 1, presentation 1 video 2, presentation 2 video 3, presentation 2 The only thing I might bet money on is that I am NOT consistent in which system I preferred, nor even that I am consistently able to determine which system is which (without even going the extra step of saying tube or SS)! Finally, I think that by far the single most limiting factor in this is the miking/YouTube limitations. Comparing the source material to the YouTube presentations reveals just how inferior this test is and I would not be surprised if were hearing the recordings at Jay’s would likely result in both more consistency as well as an ability to clearly discern which is which. But talking out of both sides of my mouth, I still would not be the least surprised if the answer to the question of “Which do you prefer?” Is,… It depends. Different music, different mood, different recording, different relative humidity (lol) may yield a different preference. I still would most like to hear the VAC preamp with the Gryphon Mephistos at Jay’s with a glass of French Pinot Noir at my lips. I think that could just be magic! Jay, thanks for a super fun trial in the dead of winter. Kudos galore to you!
****** Quick note: I noticed that Jay just posted the results while I was typing my review. I just wanted to state for the record that I posted this before watching the video (in fact I still haven't watched!). So no cheating on my part! whether it makes me look better or worse!!! lol |
I am glad you all have learned something through this!! Keep your mind open to new things. I want to teach you all that there might be stuff out there you are overlooking that could COMPLETELY elevate your system.
I am glad you have seen and heard something you did not think would take you by storm. I am glad and i hope that maybe you can look into a Gryphon amp at some point since you seemed to have liked it. I look forward to hearing from the rest of you all . Please let's keep the discussion healthy and engaging 😉
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Wow, I was completely wrong about which presentations was tube. I chose all 3 of the solid-state presentations. Well, at least I consistently picked the same setup every time. LOL Of course, I have never heard any of this setup combination anywhere, at any time, prior to this shootout. Congratulations to the Gryphon/ Solution setup... Simply Amazing. I would have bet that this setup was tubes. . Thank You Jay |
Dasign, It is interesting that on all 3 videos, you and I prefer what we each think is SS, but we differ on the presentations we chose. On video 1, there was a mismatch in the volumes, which I couldn't correct for, so my choice for video 1 is actually uncertain. Since you matched dB levels, you may be correct all the way. |
