My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
I'm really interested in hearing more about the Classe Delta amps. Did Jay actually own one or are they included in the middle tier based only on the dealer demo? A fun shootout would be Classe Delta Monos versus Boulder 1161 versus Luxman M-900U versus Pass Labs XA100.8 versus Simaudio 860V2. All middle tier amps at about the same price point. |
One more thing, the "Atari-like" software that the Taiko TAS employs is in Beta and the final version is in the works to be released in the near future. They chose to make the "buggy" unfinished product available so that users could enjoy the SQ enhancement as well as offer opinions on preferences in the final version... |
From Jay: "There's mixed opinions on the Taiko. I heard from credible sources that the Aurender n30 kills it." Hi Jay = The Aurender n30 may indeed be an awesome component and preferred by some versus the Exreme, but as far as "killing" the Taiko, pretty doubtful. I'm interested in hearing thoughts and conclusions from those who have had both in their system... |
Perhaps I misinterpreted some of my friends remarks regarding the differences in the REF 10, versus the REF 6 S.E., as the conversation was over a year ago, and memory loss in a Senior Citizen (😏)......However there’s definitely no misinterpretation vis-a-vis the two preamps. He emphatically likes the 6SE a little more. Having never heard a REF 10, I can’t give my preference . I have owned two different ARC REF 40’s, and I definitely prefer the 6 SE. Also with judicious tube rolling, the 6 SE changes in one area that either will be an improvement or a sideways move ( gets more relaxed with some 6N6P tubes) . I prefer the change in my REF 6 SE, but your mileage may very, ( may sound more like a Yacht than a speed boat....😊 Cheers.... |
@zprr: I was given that feedback about both music servers. The system in which this took place is world class and yes all options were installed on the Taiko and he tried roon as well as Taikos software. The system is about $450k and there were several people in this shootout who voted for the n30. I have no opinion because i haven’t owned eitherThat said, Taiko needs to fix the buggy and "Atari like" software. |
Updated: [NOTE: List is Solid State amps exclusively, tube amps excluded from rankings per WC] [In no particular order within group] TOP GROUP Boulder (new Boulder) Gryphon Block Audio (Mike’s choice) Soulution Constellation Dan D’Agostino (Momentum series) **** Honorable mention MIDDLE GROUP Simaudio Jeff Rowland Merrill Audio (top performer in middle group) Pass Labs Luxman Bel Canto Black Ayre Classe |
Interesting question and by the way i had to think about this particular question A LOT... Which one is on top between Luxman and Merrill 118? This is going to be a hard one for me guys and i have to say i took a lot into consideration to come up with it: -Newer design -Breakthrough engineering with innovation -Faster sounding -Deeper and more controlled bass -More Neutral I have to say it here first for the world to see so i will go out on a limb and give the nod to the Merrill Audio 118s. You heard it from me. Merrill 118 > Luxman 900u (monos or stereo) |
Oh yeah I forgot that he also said that about Merrill in video 1. Maybe whoever updates the list just deletes my note about Luxman unless WC wants to clarify which is the top of group 2. The funny thing about it is we see these videos 2-3 days apart so I missed that contradiction, but WC is doing it all in a single within 30 minutes, so come on WC, let's get some clarity here - which is better, Merrill or Luxman?? haha, just kidding, appreciate the info and list. My prediction for bottom group: Bryston NAD Parasound PS Audio McIntosh Krell Rotel |
kren0006, Thanks for the list. The only statements from WC that are confusing to me: 1) Luxman is the top of MIDDLE GROUP 2) Merrill could probably be the last one in the TOP GROUP. So, #2 would supposedly put Merrill ahead of the Luxman, but he says Luxman is the top one. Anyway, just trying to figure out those two statements. Dave |
So I think this is WC’s upgraded list (if I missed any, someone will add). [NOTE: List is Solid State amps exclusively, tube amps excluded from rankings per WC] TOP GROUP Boulder (new Boulder) Gryphon Block Audio (Mike’s choice) Soulution Constellation Dan D’Agostino (Momentum series) **** Honorable mention MIDDLE GROUP Simaudio Jeff Rowland Merrill Audio Pass Labs Luxman (WC said top member of this group - could bump into TOP group) Bel Canto Black Ayre Classe LOWER GROUP Bryston NAD (he hasn’t gotten to lower group yet but these are the two he always mentions so not assuming too much that they’ll be here, haha) |
Hi Wc, Thank you for all the work and the highly anticipated Tier videos. Curious if you can expand on your source’s (multiple sources?) opinions of the n30 vs the extreme. “kills it” seems a bit “extreme” or at least a bit bold but what is it that they prefer about the sound? Did they use the Extreme with the latest USB driver and the TAS music player? Streaming vs local playback? I assume not dealers of only one brand. and of course i assume they heard them side by side in the same system. Regardless that I am an owner of the Extreme, I’d like to hear the unvarnished opinions of someone that has heard them both w all the same gear. Frankly, it would be the first opinion I have read in the forums along that vein and I think more than a few will be curious to hear. Will definitely make me want to hear it and would help inform future decisions. Anyway as you know I greatly appreciate your work and this community. Take good care as always |
Jay, Can't believe Plinius amps didn't make the middle tier group list. I've owned the SB 301 mk2 and I know you have also, in addition to the the SA 103. The SB 301 mk2 had killer bass with an almost tube like midrange and a clear top end. The top end got a little edgy when pushed hard but that would be my only knock on the amp. |
Oh no, Viber, you are wrong again. You not only misinterpret WC’s remarks, you try to create an alternative reality that fits your warped sonic views by misstating what WC said. Specifically, you try to cast WC’s clear findings regarding Soulution and Audio Research in what you perceive as a negative light by saying WC prefers warm tube sound. First, WC never said anything like that - which I’m now repeatedly explaining to you for the second time. Second, have you been reading this thread for the last 5 years? No really, have you? If there is one type of sound WC unquestionably DOES NOT PREFER, I can guarantee that it is warm tube sound. So your direct statement above "his emotional love affair with warm tube sound" is simply nonsensical. Do you understand why? WC has made his findings clear, but you cannot accept them. I never said he is the authority, only that you would have difficulty accepting his findings, which you have now proven a couple of times. |
kren0006, You misinterpret Jay's remarks, thinking that he said he is THE authority. But he is more truthful than you, saying that his findings are only one man's opinion. I agree with that. Get that straight, and cut out your negative remarks to me. YOU pay attention--"I feel like selling all my SS gear" is merely his emotional love affair with warm tube sound. I predict that he will prefer the 725 on things like Metallica. Do YOU understand why? |
This is part 3 of the video series: https://youtu.be/5Mx7GaWG5Hs This video finalizes the "mid-tier" group amplifiers and it sets the stage for what could be a controversial video: "bottom tier" group amplifiers. |
Viber, WC has already said the Audio Research Ref6se was much better than the Soulution. Pay attention (“I feel like selling all my SS gear” immediately after inserting the ARC, remember?). And it’s probably 1/3 the price. This is what I meant when I predicted that you’d have a hard time dealing with WC’s findings |
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Dave, My comments are based on plenty of experience with both preamps whereas musicmans are based on comments from one of ARCs employees. Chalk it up to different rooms and other supporting gear. When I say the Ref 10 is much smoother, I mean it has much more ease and sounds more natural. Really, with the separate power supply, the Ref 10 should have the edge. But in the end, it is all about personal choice. |
The ARC Ref 10 preamp, for me, is a stunning preamp. Heard it many times and I have also heard the Ref6 SE plenty. I easily prefer the Ref 10. The Ref 10 lacks a little dynamics to the Ref6 SE, but is much smoother and has a huge sound stage and tonally is much more convincing. From a few conversations I've had with someone that deals ARC around 1.5 years ago, ARC are not able to get all the parts they need for the Ref 10 anymore. So it makes sense that a Ref 1X will be the next reference. Please don't shoot the messenger, this is just what I remember from those conversations. It may be/I think that, the Ref 10 products will not be built any longer and that is why the ARC employee is saying that the Ref6 SE is their top tier product (in production). |
The LSA Voyager 350 GAN may not be available until Oct. I am likely going to let someone borrow it once I get it back this week. He is considering using it at the CanJam audio show in Los Angeles (1 of 4 amps). All of this it dependent on COVID not canceling this show. He really liked the amp before I sent it in for the mods. The AHB2s are available anytime now. Though I do think that will be a waste of time on this thread. |
I can go quite far but yes at this level it is more about the differences in sound rather than one being extremely superior to the other. Once you play here, where i am, you will soon realize that almost everything sounds awesome but you have to be the one to choose the one that checks most of your boxes. Let's see where this takes us? |
Have you heard the math problem: If a boy and a girl are sitting on opposite ends of a park bench and the boy moves half the distance to the girl each time, will he ever reach the girl? The mathematician will answer no because he will eventually be moving infinitely smaller distances as he approaches the girl. The engineer says yes- he will get close enough to the girl for all practical purposes. How far can Jay go before the differences become insignificant? |
I still think Jay has a long way to go. He hasn't showed a lot of brands yet. To name a few: DartZeel, Soulution amp, Nagra HD, Dagostino Relentless, Goldmund, FM Acoustics, AudioNote, CH in the amplifier world. Many more in the speaker world: Kharma, Estelon, YG, etc... in his room. I actually think even doing all these could keep him busy for the next 10 years lol. Where is the guy who wants to send Jay the Benchmark??? |
Hi Jay, I have watched your videos and read this post with fascination. Your audio journey over these past few years has quickly escalated into the ultra high end. You are living the dream that many of us, if we had the means, would be doing as well. Ultimately, you must realize that this path is a dead end. Eventually, the best speaker, preamp, amp, cables, source and combination thereof will be assembled and evaluated. At some point it might be cheaper to build an auditorium and hire the actual bands. :) For some, getting caught up in the gear leads to abandonment of the hobby. It doesn't have to be that way. We all get into this hobby for the love of music. The gear is the means not the end. I love that so many engineers and inventors find ways to build better audio gear but the musicians and the music they make- that creativity is an endless path of discovery. Streaming hifi is amazing to me. It has opened up a whole universe of music. I have been fortunate myself to build a satisfying if relatively modest hifi system and now my only issue is a sore backside. I can sit for hours listening to music. I have to get up and move around now and then but I'm so captivated that I do not want to get out of my chair. You can bet I'm curious as to what and how your ultimate system will look and sound like. I'm cheering you on. But I am also curious to see your journey into the world of music. |
The stock feet on the ARC products are cheap rubber thangs.....EAR feet, to be exact (at least that is what is shown on their website). They sound rubbery....slow. Please try various (try different ones to see which works best) serious feet underneath the ARC if you have not already......assuming you are wanting the best sound possible. Of course, adding Quantum Science Fuses to the ARC and to all components that use a fuse will take it up a serious notch....again, only if you are pursuing great sound will you do this......he he |
Well ARC have 3 current production preamp models: the Ref10 retails for $30k, the Ref6se for $17k, and the Ls28se for $10k. So the Ref 6se is unquestionably their mid-tier preamp in cost in at least two ways. It’s the second of three, and retails for just over half of the top model. As far as Sonics, it’s a much more recent model than Ref 10, so if it beats the Ref 10 in certain areas that’s certainly possible. (Sonics, unlike price, being subjective, of course). But as you say, it is very likely that very soon they will come out with a new flagship that will both be much more expensive than Ref 6se and will likely sound much better. |
The ARC 6 SE is not ARC’s “mid tier” offering as someone suggested above. It’s their penultimate Preamp. I have it on very good authority ( I am a friend of one of the employees at ARC). He is near the top at ARC in seniority and experience with all their products for over 30 years. In his opinion the 6 SE is their best, “OVERALL” preamp . He does admit that the REF 10 is better in a few areas (dynamics, bass reach and impact due to the external power supply, but overall he prefers the the 6SE.......(smoother, somewhat more relaxed, better tonal purity, and stages a little better.....(width, depth, etc.) He further adds this is not only his opinion but are shared with others at ARC. That’s why we will probably be seeing a REF 11 in the not to distant future. Anyway they are both superlative preamps, but at the end of the day its all about “system synergy “ Cheers..... |
Jay, agree with you on your post above. It is most certainly not just about amps, its about all the gear and how it works together. Case in point, my neighborhood lost fiber service for a day early this week and when the internet was working again, my EtherREGEN would not connect. Sound is still quite good, but not 4-6 hours session good. Need to get that figured out, but it shows that it is about more than just a good amp or speakers, it is about the system as a whole. The EtherREGEN kind of does what the ARC Ref6SE does for the VAC amps, just takes the sound to a whole new and more pleasing level. |
