Oz, I'd definitely say they outperform most tube amps I've heard (especially in terms of bass articulation and top to bottom resolution). And the amazing thing is that you can get them to sound just like a great tube amp if you want to -- simply by using a great tube preamp ahead of it.
I have a friend who uses his NuForce with a TAD-150 Signature with excellent results. In fact, it caused him to get rid of his tube amp, which couldn't keep up sonically.
I'm currently using a Parasound P/LD-2000 into a TAD-150 Signature and then into the NuForce Reference 8s. I know that using two preamps in tandem might seem weird, but I'm actually getting the best sound quality that way. It's my own special recipe that I discovered by accident when I first hooked up the TAD-150 to see if it worked. I found the TAD-150 by itself (though an excellent performer) to be just a touch soft and laid back for my taste.
The solid-state P/LD-2000 feeding the TAD-150 somehow lets the system maintain its excellent dynamic kick while also creating sweet, airy tube sound. It's fantastic on vocals and guitar and the bass totally comes alive. I consider this combo the best of both worlds. I'm using SignalCable's excellent Silver Resolution interconnects to connect the chain and it's pure magic. |
In contrast to Drubin's findings, I compared the twice-as-expensive Rowland 201s to the NuForce Reference 8Bs on Aerial 10t speakers and found that I liked the Nuforce much better in the midrange and high frequencies. The ONLY area where I felt the twice-as-powerful Rowlands beat the Nuforce was in bass extension and slam. I thought the Reference 8s sounded more natural and musical than the Rowlands in the critical midrange and highs.
I am now (and have been for some time) testing different versions of the NuForce Reference 9 amps. There are a few variables that Nuforce is playing with that have had dramatic effects on the unit's overall performance.
I can tell you that the Reference 9 series has a more extended and powerful bottom end than the Reference 8 series. It sounds generally more relaxed and can play at louder average levels. I can also tell you that this particular amp may have the potential to be a state-of-the-art contender, regardless of its price and/or expense of its individual components.
As I write this I'm waiting for my amps to return from another (minor but critical) change that may put them into super-amp territory. I have heard versions of the Ref 9s that excelled in one area or another, but I'm hoping this latest version will excell in all areas and fit my paradigm of the ideal amplifier. It's the refinement and culmination of several parts/circuit changes and some fine tuning. Some might even consider it personalization for my particular taste and system requirements. So be it!
Will it be every man's cup of tea. Heck no! No amp, no matter how perfect would appeal to everyone because we all have different listening biases and our individual ideals for "perfection".
I used to do a lot of audio club demonstrations and came away with the firm opinion that if you put a live band behind a curtain and let them play, at least half the group in attendance wouldn't think it sounded quite right. For some it would be too bright, for others too colored, and still others would think it wasn't colored enough.
Let's face it, pleasing ALL audiophiles is something no one component (no matter how fantastic or absolutely accurate) could possibly achieve. |
Hi John,
I did not feel that your comments were directed at me and didn't take any offense. I see reviewers get slammed here fairly regularly in this forum, so I don't usually take it personally. I appreciate your concern and thank you for considering my feelings.
Like you, I believe the NuForce technology has something special to offer and I think audiophiles should be aware of it. One thing I can say for sure, is that to my ears, my systems have never sounded better since I began using the NuForce amplifiers as my reference.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.
Frank :) |
I have recently received my Reference 9s back from a couple of final mods from NuForce. My amps are the version 9.02 and have extended bass, extended bandwidth, and the gold/copper WBT NextGen RCA inputs. Before this last mod, I also discovered that removing the yellow capacitor across the speaker outputs extended the bass and made the sound more transparent. So mine are without that output capacitor, as well. This is currently the latest version, and can be bought from NuForce with all the upgrades I have.
I think part of the reason I like these amps so much is because of the unique super-fast digital power supply that NuForce has developed. It seems to enable high dynamic capability with high speed (to catch the leading edge of musical transients without smearing or blurring them).
One poster said he thought the amps sounded more like what he hears live than any other amps he's tried and I agree with that. I use the super-fast VMPS RM30 speakers and can tell you that not all speakers are capable of responding accurately to the speed of the signal that the NuForce amps can deliver. The VMPS ribbon drivers are incredibly quick and detailed and with the latest Reference 9s will provide a near-live listening experience if the recording and the rest of the component chain is up to it.
Regarding tonality, as has been noted here, there have been different versions of this amp and different combinations of upgrades that have produced different results in my system. I liked the NextGen Platinum RCA inputs with earlier versions of the amps, but found them too bright for this latest, extended bandwidth version and had them changed to the copper/gold version, which has worked well to provide a natural tonal balance.
Another note on tonality is that the NuForce amps are very cable sensitive (just like most amps). They are especially power-cord sensitive and if you find the right combination of interconnects, speaker cables, and power cords, they will provide very natural and transparent sound.
The bottom line is that these latest Reference 9s, the 9.02 upgraded version, have taken my system to new heights that I believe would be difficult or impossible for other amps to match.
I'll be writing a full review for www.stereotimes.com, shortly.
Happy Listening! |
Mdconnelly,
Good question. When I heard my specific Reference 8B amps on the 10T's it was at a friend's home who is a member of the Phoenix A/V club. He has a wonderful setup and a fantastic, custom-built room that is almost perfect for audio, judging from my experience that day.
The one area that came off as lacking on the 8B's compared to the owner's modified Bryston 7BST's and the Rowland 201's was that of bass extension -- weight and slam. Both of the higher-powered amps beat the 8B's in that regard. But you also need to put it in the context that the 8B's were being used on relatively inefficent speakers ( 86 or 87 dB/watt, I believe) in a large room and at relatively loud playback levels. Still, the 8Bs acquitted themselves quite well although rated at less than half the power of the other amps on hand. Actually, I couldn't believe how loud the 8Bs played that system while maintaining their composure and ability to make music.
In my own system, on the VMPS RM30s, I also find the Reference 8 series a little light in bass extension compared to other amps I have used. Now the Reference 9's have considerably more rms power output capability than the Reference 8's, and they have more instantaneous peak power capability to boot.
That said, the 90dB/watt RM30's in my room are much easier for an amp to drive than my friend's 10T system. But, at even modest listening levels, the Reference 8's come off as being somewhat anemic in the lowest bass. There is no denying they are dynamic and extremely articulate in the bass they provide, yet the Reference 9's in my system sound more relaxed at higher average playback levels that the Ref 8s could comfortably manage. Perhaps more importantly, the Reference 9s provide real weight, slam, and extension in the low bass. I found early versions of the Reference 9s not quite up to the midrange/treble performance of my updated Reference 8s, in terms of speed, incisiveness, and hf extension. However, the 9.02 version of the Reference 9 with the double input capacitance (and yellow output caps removed) appears to surpass my Reference 8s in the midrange and treble, and it's a bit more holographic in its soundstaging presentation, as the TAS reviewer noticed.
If you own 10t's or any other relatively inefficient speaker, and enjoy healthy bass slam, then there is no question that the Reference 9.02 amps are the way to go.
On the other hand, a person who uses monitors, with limited low bass or someone who augments their main speakers with powered subwoofers could be very happy with either the Reference 8s or Ref 9s, I should think.
Frank :) |
Dbarger,
As long as you have adequate power with the Ref 8s and you're happy with the bass extension, there is probably no reason to upgrade to the Ref 9s. The pair of Ref 8s I have are the 8.02, I believe, and I like them very much. My feeling is that the latest Reference 9s are a little better in the ways that I mentioned above. That said, the 8.02's that I have do not contain all the most recent upgrades of my Ref 9s. So it is very possible and likely that the most recent version of the Ref 8 does compete well with the Ref 9, in the midrange and treble (provided that NuForce is upgrading the latest Ref 8 in the same ways).
In my view, bass freaks and those with relatively inefficient speakers (under about 88dB/watt) may be better served by the Ref 9s (this is also dependent on the size of one's room and how loud one likes his music). Since NuForce has extended the bandwidth of the Ref 9s into the treble spectrum, to my ears they sound as fast and detailed as any pair of Ref 8s that I've heard. I believe the bandwidth specs that NuForce currently lists is outdated.
Realize too, that the power supply of the Ref 8s is limited by the smaller size of its chassis, i.e., it's likely that a higher capacity power supply wouldn't physically fit inside the compact dimensions of the Ref 8.
So right now, the relevant performance-related questions are completely dependent upon the specific version of each amplifier you happen to be comparing and which options (if any) they contain. |
Jp1208,
I'm getting excellent results with my Reference 9s using a PS Audio UPC-200 AC line conditioner. I think it's always best to use some form of AC line filtering when possible.
As for using pucks, cones, and such, I've experimented briefly with some of those things, but I'm presently getting great results with the Ref 9s standing on their own feet on a couple of corian planks set on my carpet.
I've recently had a sonic breakthrough using the Benchmark DAC-1 via its fixed outputs through a buffered, unity-gain solid-state linestage and then into the Reference 9s.
To my ears, using the Benchmark's variable outputs directly into the amps produced a very detailed and intimate sound, but one that was on the bright and thin side of reality.
Then, rerouting the Benchmark, using its fixed outputs through my buffered linestage and then into the amps literally transformed the system. The soundstage dimensionality literally took command of the room and all of a sudden there was a richness to the lower midrange and bass that just wasn't there before. I am amazed at the transformation. I believe this is the best sound I've heard from any system at any time. It is most certainly the best sound I've ever experienced in my current listening room by a considerable margin. Obviously, the system could not sound this fantastic if the Reference 9s were not doing their part.
I'll be curious to hear your impressions of the Reference 9s in your system once you have a chance to play with them and do some listening. They will definitely show you what the rest of your gear is doing or not doing and you'll be well rewarded for each compatible system change you try. |
Guy's,
I think the chassis issue is being way overdone here. Obviously the NuForce amps wouldn't sound nearly as good as they do if the chassis affected the sound that much. And the chassis is more substantial on the Reference 9s than it is on the Reference 8 series.
I used to know a highly acclaimed audio designer who told me he could put his circuits in a cardboard box and they would sound about the same -- and maybe better, because there wouldn't be ferrous metal next to the circuitry. He'd say, "Sure, give me another $500 to $1000 and I'll put it in a real pretty box for you -- but it will still sound the same."
Beyond that, I have to say that I don't know of a single piece of audio gear (no matter how stout the chassis) that doesn't respond to chassis tuning tweaks.
Unsound, the Ref 9s will provide 300 watts rms at 4 ohms and almost 700 watts in short term peak power. If that's not enough for you Jason intimated that NuForce will be coming out with an even more powerful amp in the future. |
That's funny, I read about a guy with Apogee speakers that had the H20 amps and the NuForce Reference 8 (early version), and he said it powered his Apogees just fine. And I believe they were the very low impedance model. He summed up that experience by saying that the H20's had more ultimate bass weight and slam, but other than that he thought the amps were very comparable. I know the Ref 9s have more bass weight and slam than the Ref 8s, so I guess that would even things up a bit more.
Hey, I'm sure they're both great sounding amps, and that one may do something a little better than the other (and vice-versa). To me it's not that big a deal. I just think it's silly to say (or to believe) that one amp is hugely better.
I have about three reviews to write at the moment, but perhaps when I'm further along I'll contact Henry Ho to see if he'll send a review sample.
Meanwhile, if there are any H20 owners within driving distance of Tucson that would like to do a shootout, let's get it on. ;-D |
Maybe, about the revisions, but if you listen to the current model Ref 9.02, it's an awesome sounding amp that clearly outperforms the bulk of amplifiers on todays market and competes with some VERY expensive units.
True, the many revisions are annoying, but the results of these revisions are giving us sensational performance for the dollar. So consider that too...
I expect to receive a set of the new Reference 9SE amps later this month, and I can't wait! Nuforce is upgrading the internal parts and I believe they are cryo-treating the processing module and a couple other enhancements.
It should be very interesting to compare to the current Reference 9.02. |
Wow, no kidding, NuForce backed out... They must be really scared!
Hey, I'll tell you what Muralman, why don't you get your buddy Henry Ho to send me a pair of his best H20 amps and I'll review them along with the NuForce Reference 9SE amps I'll be getting soon... Or you can always send me your own amps for a few weeks if you're interested. I'll have the review and results published -- so the world can read all about it.
Sound good???
Frank |
Wow, unbelieveable, what a hornet's nest this thread has become...
Redkiwi and Stehno, I want to thank you for posting. I hope some folks can see what's really going on here.
My opinion it that the NuForce detractors suffer from a few common human failings, which certainly isn't damning, but it is rather disappointing. I'm talking about shortsightedness, failure to see the big picture, and dare I say -- a certain amount of jealousy.
Personally, I'm extremely thankful for NuForce's novel contributions to home audio reproduction. It's not like their early designs sound bad by any means. But they are improving all the time and that seems to scare some people.
No one says that you have to send the amps back every time there is a small change. My feeling is that if you like the sound you are currently getting then stick with it for a while. If you want to stay current then fine, send the amps back once or twice a year and have them upgraded for very reasonable fees.
NuForce is also unique in offering this level of customer support and service. A lot of other companies will just tell you to sell the old model and buy their new one. Either that or they charge very high prices for their upgrades.
NuForce is a very proactive and progressive company and some folks just can't stand it. I say too bad for them. As for me, I'm enjoying my music more than ever since I changed my reference amplification to NuForce.
Oh yeah, and I'll put my current Reference 9's (nevermind the SE's) up against all comers regardless of price. They will certainly beat the bulk of amplifiers on today's market, and those that can compete will likely cost much more. |
Eldartford, I think your comments amount to nothing more than a lot of very premature conjecture. Personally I believe the true color of the universe is Antique Rose Copper, but then, I could be wrong too. LOL ! |
