2. misc-audio
  3. 1383246560

Objective vs. Placebo relating to system changes

I am continually baffled by the number of people that are convinced that changes to power cords, speaker wires, interconnects, etc. in their systems result is objectively real changes. While I won't go so far as saying that making these changes absolutely doesn't make a difference, I would love to have the resources to challenge people prove it to me and test it with my own ears.

Here's what I would do if time and financial resources were no object (I'm visualizing retired millionaires that are audiophiles).

I would build a listening room where the only components in the listening space were the speakers and the speaker cables coming through opening in the wall where the rest of the system was setup. The idea would be to allow the test subject the opportunity to create their system of choice and then have the opportunity to become very familiar with the system by spending hours listening. Then I would let them know when I was going to start changing different components on them on a very random basis and they should report any changes that they heard so we could link the changes to any potential changes on the other side of the wall.

Here's a short list of things that I'd try:

(1) I would replace the upgraded power cord with the stock unit.
(2) I would install or remove isolation (e.g. Nordost sort kones) devices from a component.
(3) I would replace interconnects with basic quailty products.
(4) I would replace well "broken-in" cables with otherwise identical new ones.

Depending on the results of doing these test slowly over a period of time I would consider swapping out some of the more major components to see how obvious a macro change was if the listener wasn't aware that a change had been made.

I can tell the difference between new and broken in speakers (on ones that I'm familiar with) so I know this break-in is very real and would also not be at all surprised with differences from amplifiers and analog sources being obvious. I'm not as sure about digital sources.

So the question is, what components in your system would you be confident enough to bet, say $1,000, that you could identify that something changes if it was swapped out?

In my system I am sure that I could identify a change in amplification or speakers, but highly doubt that I could do the same with any cables, isolation devices, or digital sources. Maybe I just reduced myself to being a non-audiophile with low-fi gear?
mceljo
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mceljo OP
1,356 posts
 
Tls49 - I would love to have my speakers out from the wall, but with two under three in a small house the options are very limited just like my time to critically listen. I have heard my speakers connected to a much better system in a much better room and am generally very happy with my setup.

I picked up the tube amp after work today and am currently listening to it. So far it sounds great and in some ways very different from my solid state receiver, but doesn't have the low end punch that I'm used to. Tonight is easy low volume listening with my wife so it's not really a good test. On Sunday I'll get a chance to air it out a bit more and plan to try ultralinear mode vs. triode mode and also the 4 ohm taps. For now I'm sticking with triode mode and the 8 ohm taps. Only time will tell. I didn't purchase it with the expectation of it being objectively better than my current amplifier. The goal was simply to give tubes a try within a limited budget.
mceljo OP
1,356 posts
 
And my room is ever so slightly different now. There is a bookself on the right side on the wall in front of the subwoofer. The small shelf on the left is now gone and the rug is a bigger size of the same. Space is limited. The extra bookshelf is one of two that was necessary when our office/guest room was turned into a second baby room. There are no more rooms...

My wife doesn't consider a listening room when she dreams about building a house, but we're more than a few years from a move.
brownsfan
1,508 posts
 
"That's the point - there often ISN'T science and engineering, it's mystical nonsense that's justified by saying that "well, you're system can't resolve to hear the difference sniff, sniff", or "well, maybe YOUR ears can't hear, but mine....."."

Snofun3, Can you identify specific manufacturers that you know for a fact used no science or engineering in design of their products? And can you share with us how you have come to know this for a fact?

I hope you are not confusing what is disclosed in product marketing with what is used in product design. I also hope you are not demanding that end users of a particular product have deep technical competence in the relevant discipline in order to express a valid opinion regarding the utility or value of that particular product.

I can afford a Porsche, but I drive a Honda. I don't sneer at people who choose to spend 90K on their ride, nor do I suggest that Porsche is run by a bunch of crooked film flam artists who exist only because they prey on naive fools who don't know what they are doing or talking about.

Mceljo expresses skepticism -- I get that. I was also a skeptic until a buddy lent me 3k worth of PCs for 2 weeks while he went on vacation. There are others who seem to have closed their minds to this issue. Fine, that's their prerogative. I just ask people to consider that there are some pretty bright people around here who are on the other side of this issue.

I understand placebos. I've brought stuff in (including PCs and ICs) that made no difference. I've never spent more than 1.5K on a PC or IC.

Well, I guess that's about all I have to say until 2 months from now when someone else starts an essentially identical thread.
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