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Paradigm Personas: A First Listen

I thought starting a new thread would be more appropriate since it would allow for a more focused discussion.

I have Paradigm S8v2s and have owned them, since new, for 8 years.  I have lived with them happily and when I bought them I knew they were going to be a long term purchase.  Cables, sources etc may come and go but big speakers are harder to find, harder to move and sell (I think).  I found a local dealer (the only one in BC so far) that has the entire Persona line; except the 7F.  They had the 9H, 5F, 3F and Monitor.  I got to hear all of them.  The 9H was in a dedicated room set up for home theatre.  The others were in a 2 channel only system.  Preamp/source was a Cambridge Audio preamp with a media player built in, Wadia Class D amps.  System was nice, sounded good and not the "highest end" you would expect, but more real world.  I took along a CD of Parijat: Prayer to Love (excellent CD BTW.  Highly recommended and wonderfully recorded).  I am very familiar with the CD.  My system has its own room, Luxman Class A amps, Luxman preamp, Bryston DAC, Nordost and Wirewizard Cables.  I think my system has an edge on electronics, but I will leave that out as I think that is splitting hairs.

First speaker I heard was the 5F.  The first thing that is immediate is the midrange and treble purity, clarity, integration, smoothness and extension.  I definitely say there is no discontinuity between the mid/tweeter.  Having a Beryllium tweeter myself I know what to expect, and the 5F did not disappoint.  The sound was relaxed, clear, focused with excellent detail.  No harshness, grain, etch or sibilance at all.  Imaging was also excellent; focused, wide and deep with good height.  Note that the 5F, 3F were right beside each other and the Monitors on stands right beside the 3's.  They were in an open room not a dedicated room, so I could only suspect the speakers would sound better as the environment would get better.  In short, the tweeter/mid was superb.  The best I have heard.  I would give the edge to the Persona's over my S8's in this regard, but given the mid and tweeter are both Beryllium they are going to have identical resonances on the fact the material is the same; it will be homogenous.  The S8 is no slouch, so the differences are small, but I give the Persona the edge here.  And I like my S8's.  I have not felt wanting.

The description for the mid/tweeter is identical for each model; there was no difference, perhaps a slight difference for the Monitor but its limited lower end might of SEEMED things to be more clear/detailed.  Hard to say.  Bottom end on the 9H was robust, to be polite, but to be expected too.....4 8 inch cones internally powered...I think a subwoofer here would be redundant in all but the largest rooms to be sure.  But the snap, punch and detail were excellent.  Moving to the 5 and 3, the bottom end was not as prodigious but still extended and tuneful.  Detail was excellent but to be expected the 5 was more pronounced than the 3.  I think both (and the Monitor for sure) would benefit from a sub, but I leave that to the reader's personal taste.  There was no evidence of port noise or discontinuity of any type.  Unfortunately, I have yet to find out (if you would like to bi amp) WHERE the biamp crossover is.  I found out the hard way on my S8 it is between the tweeter/mid, not the mid/bass as you would expect.  This would allow for a Class A or tube amp on the all important mid/tweeter and a robust amp for the bottom end.  I would like Paradigm to be clear on this point as finding out the hard way for me was costly.  I let a good Bryston amp go for no reason other than the fact it was not able to work in my system as planned.  

I suppose the real question is this:  are they worth it?  Well, I thought about my own system on the drive home, and since my system's weak point is NOT the speakers, I would, for me, not buy or let my S8 go unless someone gave me a good offer.  The logistics of selling speakers that are 4 feet tall, almost 2 feet deep and 100lbs is not a small feat, and shipping (unless local pickup) will be expensive.  I bought the S8 knowing it was going to be with me for a long time, and in fact I would rather keep them since they are so good (to me).   But I would buy the Personas for sure.  The high end purity and midrange clarity, coherence and detail are so good I was floored by how good it was.  Bottom end weight and volume is a personal preference, and adding subs obviates the comparison there, as either the 5 or 3 would be a killer system with subs.  I had extended time with the 5 and 3 and the jump in price between the two makes sense if the sub is out of the equation.  I think the added bottom end on the 5 could easily be made up with the 3 and a good sub, think JL Audio f112, e110 or e112.  An outboard crossover as part of the deal would be stating the obvious (in fact the JL Audio CR 1 crossover is what I am eyeing next.  With this, should some time down the road come I decide to jump up to the Personas finances permitting, it would greatly affect what Persona I get).  But by then I might have a different room so whom knows, but so long as the flexibility is there you have options.  I was hoping to see the 7F but the 9H is almost identical in  size.  Considering the competition they are up against I think they hold very well.  Making a matching Beryllium tweeter and mid is no small feat, and costly to boot.  Moreover, Paradigm's size and economy of scale is such that you get more than you pay for, this has been a Paradigm hallmark.  A smaller company could bring out a matched Beryllium set, perhaps, but at what cost?  I can see why the Persona line costs more, but after seeing them and listening to them, I don't feel at all that they are overpriced or outrageous.  Obviously the sound is what counts, but there is more to it than that.  I honestly think you get what you pay for; the real trick is finding the goods out there that go a step further and really offer the "diamond in the rough".  For me personally, the cost and logistics of selling my current speakers is not something I can do right now.  But if I could, I would have no issue owning a Performa.  The 7F is what I have sought my sights on, but the 5F is no slouch.  As a smaller speaker, there is little to fault the 3F and add in a sub (or two)....watch out.  Even without subs, the 5 and the 3 are more than pleasant, and in a enclosed room where there is room reinforcement......it would be interesting to know.

Pictures do not do the speakers justice.  They are gorgeous.  Fit and finish is superb, certainly better than my S8. The lenses are really trick.  I don't think there should be any trouble with the WAF but their styling is a bit modern, some might not like it.  The room presence is not nearly as strong as you would think; the S8 being so deep and narrow hides in the room well.  The Personas do as well, but are so gorgeous you don't want to hide them.  You would think the 9H to be imposing, but that is not the case, especially if you are use to bigger speakers anyway.

I am very impressed and happy that the "step up" Paradigm has made has been done well, with thought, focus and obvious results.  As to relative to what is out there, especially to what I have heard, they compete favourable with much more expensive speakers, and I have heard Focals (which is another brand I like because, surprise, they have a Beryllium tweeter).  I just think the matching tweeter/mid, especially at the price, is hard to beat.  And I am sure that the better the gear upstream would only help the sound.  The 5Fs or 3Fs in my system with the gear I have would be very interesting.

Who knows what the year brings.  I give the Personas the highest recommendation, and this is from someone whom has owned a good pair for years without complaint.  If anyone is thinking of trying out a pair I urge you to do so if possible before making any decisions.  Paradigm, with the Personas, has truly evolved into a high end brand, and deserves consideration as such.  

 
128x128blackfly
audiotroy's avatar
audiotroy
3,807 posts
 
One Ascend may make a nice speaker, but they do not have the engineering prowess or pocket book to make their own drivers from scratch, I mean no offense to the guy from Ascend but lets face facts. 

Two: The Beryillium tweeter in the Personas is pure Beryillium many of the Beryillium tweeters out there are not pure Beryillium and aside from just the dome, the entire driver is made by Paradigm, and the speaker also employs some other unique technolgiesm to make a world class tweeter,  their is also the lens technology which lowers distortion while improving power output and imaging, the other drivers also employ patened technolgies including a type of suspension for the bass drivers which provides far greater exercusion while lowering distortion. 

Although a Ribbon may have lighter mass, their is a reason why all the great loudspeaker manufactures don't use them, aside from Genesis who makes their own circular ribbon which again acts more like a conventional direct radiating driver, and it isn't cost, the standard pure Beryilium seas and scan speak tweeters also cost around $500.00  while other companies such as Tidal and Polymer use drastically more expensive pure Diamond tweeters, again not Ribbons. 

Ask yourself why Magico, Focal, Wilson, YG, Vandersteen, Avalon, Tidal, Polymer, Vivid, Kharma etc don't use the superior technology ribbon driver, which you obviously feel is a better driver.  

The issue is the greater the surface area  required to provide greater dynamics and higher power handling the greater the deffraction which there is no way to engineer around. Also Ribbon tweeters can not play as loudly without creating greater amounts of distortion as the moving diaphram moves further away for the magnets strongest part of the field. 

The other issue is again coherency you are handing off your critical midrange frequencies to another entirely different driver made out of an entirely different material. 

I have heard speakers with the Raal ribons, Fountek, and Arum  Cantus, they all produce stunning highs the issue is always getting them to blend with the midrange driver which invariably isn't a ribbon. 

If you remember  the Apogee full range ribbons they had issues with dyanmics and usually sounded compressed unless you had gigantic and super expensive amplifiers on them, and unless you got them in the middle of the room they also had issues, also the image wasn't exaclty super pinpoint and holographic. 

Long story short none of these speakers are perfect they all have strenghths and weekness. I never said the Personas were the best speakers in the world, nor did I ever said they beat cost no object designs, both myself and Blackfly and Constin, feel that the Personas are superb speakers that do many things remarkably well and they represent a tremendous value for the money, and they can compete with much more expensive speakers. 

Both myself and Dave, are still discovering how to make the Personas sing, but allready in some of our demo they are doing things that are absolutely amazing, their transparency and holography is just breath taking.  






okeeteekid's avatar
okeeteekid
142 posts
 
audiotroy

I will have to give the personas an audition, I hope the B tweeter in them doesn’t sound like the ones in the S2-v3, I’m use to the speed of ribbon drivers and never heard a dome that didn’t sound slow to me, will see.

gpgr4blu
1,088 posts
 
Keep on selling here Audiotroy. You may be right to continue though--here you don’t have to pay per line of sales hype and nobody stops you. So please give me more detail on the sales pitch as to why Beryllium is the best material for use in a tweeter and midrange even though many speaker designers disagree. You see--if you say this as a hobbyist who utilizes this site for a friendly exchange of opinions, that position might have more credibility. But as a salesperson for the ever-overreaching Audio Doctor, it just doesn’t work as well. Finally, please when you are done, if you sell a pair here (which would probably sell without your sales pitch) do the right thing and drop Audiogon a portion of your sales commission in the mail.
By the way--as I said earlier in the thread--nothing against the fine speakers you are pushing. It’s just the pushing part is bothersome to me.
okeeteekid's avatar
okeeteekid
142 posts
 
I just went on youtube and found some audio doctor videos, in this video from 2011 Dave was bragging about their finest speaker they had in their reference room, CES 2011 Best of Show winner—the $66k Scaena 3.2 ribbon/cone line-array loudspeaker, Dave says it is the most remarkable, lifelike 3 dimensional musical experiences imaginable, it sounds real, it’s amazing.

                                        GUESS WHAT IT HAD RIBBON TWEETERS


Go to 1.39 in the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRHrUJepfAo
audiotroy's avatar
audiotroy
3,807 posts
 
Boy you guys are really nuts and I mean Oakteekid and Grpgru

First we have a gentleman who is turned off by my friend Dave who is known in the industry as a man who knows his stuff  and producing great sound, for recommending or extolling the virtues of Usher loudspeakers, a man with 27 years of experience who worked behind the scenes at Innovative Audio and Sound by Singer and discovered and promoted VAC, BAT, Nordost, Rel, and many other well established brands which were new to the market in the early 90s. 

For the record,  the Usher BE 718 monitor and the later Diamond Version where rated by almost every major publication as being one of the best monitors for $3k including Stereophile, TAS, Enjoy the Music, Six Moons, go and read the reviews. Usher sold a lot of the 718 monitors and everyone just gushed over them. I was at that show the big BE 10 were amazing speakers and they were a great buy for their outstanding performance.

We stopped selling Usher due to the fact that their US distributor closed down and the 718 monitors started losing their edge compared to some of the later monitors including the KEF LS 50, as well as the extreme size and weight of the BE 10 and 20 made delivering them and setting them up difficult. 

As per the Scaenas they are still one of the finest speakers ever made, particularly their later version with the improved Ribbons. We stopped working with them due to quality control issues, lack of marketing, website and their lack of producing a line of speakers rather than in reality one model. I would take a pair of Scaenas over any $100-200k Wilson, Magico or Focal. 

As per Ribbons both myself and Dave do not have a thing against Ribbons or Diamond Drivers or Beryllium being the best read what I wrote that Beryllium is one of the best materials out there to make a cone out of and this material is generally better than other materials, in terms of speed and lack of distortion, what I keep on hitting on is coherence that having the exact same material for both the tweeter and critical midrange is a huge advantage.

In terms of power handling and dynamics obviously one ribbon tweeter is going to exhibit those properties use 10 of them and you can get the advantages of the low mass of the ribbon. 

Lets see again, Dave championed Scaena and Johathan Vallan rated the same setup we had CJ Art and GAT with the Scaenas as one of his best loved reference combinations. 

As per the Personas being better than other speakers again I never said that, what both Dave and myself are excited about is what these speakers do for the money compared with some of the much more expensive speakers out there.I said they can challenge and compete with them and in some areas outperform some of these brands that would also mean a similar model and price range, not a $35k Persona vs a $200k Focal or Magico.

We are both sick of the drivel that a company like Paradigm can not make a speaker which can compete with a Magico or a YG or a Wilson or what have you. Compare the product and listen for yourself. 

I would still stick to what I am hearing that the Persona drivers are amazing and in terms of resolution and image specificity the speakers are among the very best speakers. Will a $35k pair of Personas outperform a pair of $200k Genesis or IRS no of course they can not, they are not built to compete with this class of product, they may however, over greater clarity and a more precise albeit smaller sound stage. 

Maybe instead of this useless back and forth about not liking that we are talking about products we believe and extolling them, because if you haven't noticed a theme,  Dave  finds products which usually challenge the established brands and these products usually cost less and offer better performance for either, the same money or for less.

I doubt we would want to work with either of you, gentlemen, you are not our clients, we are not looking for people with closed minds who have already decided that they are predisposed to learning and experiencing because you label that "selling."

I don't know about you, but if I was in the market for a camera I would go to B&H and seek out the most experienced salesperson there and ask them which camera and why and then I would still test if myself, I would be open to coaching from someone who may know considerably more about the subject then I do. 

 Again we don't claim to know more than anyone else but we test and we test, we had a very well respected $30k table here that everyone was raving about and a $7k Merrill Williams table sounded nearly as good for 1/4 the price. How do we know we had them side by side under identical conditions. 

For power conditioners we had go through the shop, Shunyata although not the latest, Isotek, Audience, Running Springs, Silver Circle, Audio quest and Audio Magic do you want to know which one we extol over all others or do you just want to follow what the mags say is the best?

For cables we have gone through, Audioquest, Kubala, Nordost, Audience, Sound string, Snake River, Enklein, Wireworld, and Light Harmonic, want to know which cable line really sounds better most of the time and which USB cable sounds the best?

Yet check your threads about turntables you got guys talking about Basis, or VPI, or SME, or Linn  or half a dozen other tables yet nobody talks about the Merrill Williams REAL 101 which is one of the truly amazing tables out there and is another product which is a  true giant killer.  Could it be that George Merrill doesn't advertise and the man doesn't care about selling 10,000 tables a year, the man is a genius and really knows about what is really happening in vinyl playback and has been innovating vinyl playback for 30 years.  

How about Dacs, or streamers, want to know which one or ones really shine, do we have all of them no but look at what we have: we have or have had come through our shop: EMM Labs, Meitner,  Aqua Hifi, Mytek, NAD, T+A, Lummin, Aurender, Baetis, Light Harmonic, Naim, Auralic, and more.  Have you ever heard a Light Harmonic Davinci you should it is amazing. 

Want to talk speakers where can you hear: Dali, Legacy, PSB, KEF, Paradigm, Vivid, Polymer, Gradient, Cabasse,Tannoy. ATC? 

So please keep away, we don't want to be seen in your eyes as "selling" we have loyal customers who get what Dave and Audio Doctor is about, please go seek out the cadre of the rest of the big New York dealers, who sell most of their products just by what is hot in the mags.

By the way most of the products we sell or recommend aren't the ones that are necessarily hot in the mags at the time we are recommending them, but lo and behold usually after we have them for a while the press usually comes to many of the same conclusions we have. Have you even seen an official Persona review? 

We also don't get rid of products for no reason just to jump ship, it is usually due to a vendor losing US importation or finding a new product which is more practical ie smaller or less expensive or finding that the vendor isn't offering the support we like. 


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