Peeking inside a Carver Crimson 275 Tube Amplifier

@fmalitz Frank thank you for this response.. however I’d like for you to respond to why the 275 does not even come close to its specs? Why does an amp spec’d for 75 watts per channel only put out 17 wpc? Why are the transformer covers very large fake covers over very small transformers that are only capable of 15-18 wpc?

I almost bought a 275. I am glad I did not, seeing how I know from experience that my speakers need at minimum 75 to 100wpc. Can you imagine how angry I would have been finding out it can only put out 17 wpc?

I visit Audiogon often but hardly ever post.. I was moved to post this question. I’d like an honest answer.

The 275 is under scrutiny on at least four other audio forums as we speak. Interestingly on one, the negative comments are largely removed. I’m happy here we can have a warranted inquiry without censorship. I’m not sure why the forum mods are protecting truth on this other audio forum.. but the real measurements and specs are all over the internet like wild fire. Multiple sources sharing the same failures to meet published spec in epic proportion.

As a previous fan and owner of Carver products I’m anxious to hear the other side. My confidence has waned and I’m becoming bias with facts that will be tough to refute or explain.

Kinda silly.. doesn’t take an engineer to look up the transformer part number and see it’s only rated for 15 watts. . Doesn’t take an engineer to measure output at only 15 to 17 watts per channel.. pick on science nerds all you want. 
 

Why does the manual say the transformers are made from fictional steel from Greek mythology or Wolverine’s claws… no kidding right out of the manual. FROM CARVER, there it’s verified.

We’ll let’s talk about what I would hear. The manufacturer of my speakers says 100 watts are to be seen as an absolute minimum and it’s highly recommended to be ran on 200 Watts. It’s easy to hear noticeable differences going from 100 and then 200 W with my speakers. So having been a carver fan and owning twin C-500’s vertically bi-amped, I toyed with buying 275s. Can you imagine how incredibly angry I would have been? He, the manufacturer, Mr. Carver, is saying his amps put out 75 watts… it’s not true.. but he’s not even close. He puts out something like 17 W. You’re telling me I should be just OK with that because it might sound nice on some efficient speakers? 17 is not 75. And hiding the fact by putting teeny weenie little tiny transformers under big gigantic covers is just fraudulent.

So our answer is.. “here’s referrals that say it sounds great” and “we measured 75 to 90..” That isn’t proof. Stats should be provable. If I’m a huge heel, if I just don’t get it, ok. I’m not the brightest bulb, but I’d like to be shown how 75 watts per channel are consistently put out by this amp.

Then I’ll know I over reacted. I’d be the first one to say theres egg on my face. 

My guess is it’s the same parts. Don’t care if he provided a cushion in slipping in the they were 35 wpc examples or not. I bet they are exactly the same parts. Same weight still..They had Mr. Carver there approving every step, they used the same schematic under Mr. Carvers’ supervision and both tested almost exactly the same.. in other words, they assembled things correctly. It’s a scapegoat replay saying the science was bad and they weren’t wirde4sound manufactured.. look at the back peddling already.. advertised as 75 wpc not its 75w for one channel but only measured without much bass… WHAT? I really don’t need any more reply or lies. The amp is a fraud. Maybe its an ok sounding 17 wpc amp. But it’s missing 4.5 X the power. Like that’s ok? It’s like saying “I brought $1000 of the $5000 I owe you, but you’re cool with that right?”

I’m very sorry @jbhiller. I feel for you. You were promised with published specs by a assumed reliable builder with a famed reputation. I believed in him too. You mentioned “The Big Room”.. I came very very close to buying two to vertically bi-amp my Alon IV speakers. 3 ohm, 86db. Can you imagine if I had bought them?

I’m sure the truth will keep surfacing. You won’t be alone. 

Actually I found four production trucks being made in 2022 making 1000hp. I knew they were out there but I didn’t know the were rare and limited runs.

@jbhiller those are nice respectful words… but it’s not a two-way street. One man buys a top of the line loaded diesel powered $75,000 pick up truck because he really likes the looks of it and just needs to cruise to work and back and around town. To him that pick up truck checked all the boxes and he thinks it’s amazing.

another man buys the exact same model because he needs to move bulldozers across the country.

Now imagine that the manufacturer didn’t put a 1000 ftlbs of torque (edited for one’s happiness) diesel motor in the truck. No, he put a 200 ft lbs of toque four-cylinder motor in the truck.

Now I ask you, it may be a wonderfully made four-cylinder motor. It may cruise around town for the first owner just fine. But do you think anyone’s going to be impressed or praise the manufacturer or respect them as a company because for one client it could cruise around town smoothly? For the second owner it couldn’t even toe a lawn mower not to mention bulldozers? They didn’t better the market with an amazing truck. They pulled a fast one and out of greed, laughed in both owners faces. Fool me once… is the old saying.

I’ll also remind… to hide, cover over, our reply that we received was… we’ll the carver fest kits were 35 wpc versions? (Same parts and they know it) and, we’ll… that’s with one channel measured with most of the bass pulled out to meet 75 watts… hard to respect or admire a cover up. Respect is a 2-way street. Do they respect us? They think that we’ll never know the difference, we’re idiots. We’ll believe 35 watt kits and one channel measured… or they think, we won’t understand specs, just read the referrals.. that’s what matters.. meanwhile the bulldozer can’t go anywhere. The work can’t get done.

@thecarpathian edited for your peace of mind.

@jbhiller from reading your posts in this thread I have a strong impression that you look for the good in others and are peaceable, and reasonable. I admire that. Don’t change.

Nobody so far thats independent of Carver affiliation, is getting even 60 watts per channel. Yes they should have used a bigger power supply and maybe gotten a realistic 20 wpc. That would have been possibly a decent marketable product. But hey, if you only run one channel without half the frequencies that matter, it could be a wonderful center channel home theater amp.

For potential customers that use efficient speakers I’m sure it does sound great. Lots have attested to that. But what about the other half who have in-efficient speakers who wanted to pair them with a well selected amp? Carver knew they’d lose half the potential buyers, so they lied. Now half the people who bought them are not seeing the full potential of their sound..

I listen on average around 76-82 db in a 26 x 40-ish room with 13’ ceilings. Even at those db’s, I can easily hear the difference in a 100 watt per channel from a 200 watt per channel. I can hear the difference between one power supply and two power supplies with the same wattage. The Carvers that I almost bought, would have been a disaster.

A couple of other forums that are discussing this subject have noticed this thread. Jbhiller’s shared experience about his transformer is now out there to add to this.

It’s funny how all the threads go in a circle about “We’ll,…. It sounds good so it’s a great amp… measurements only tell part of the story” All true from my perspective. But that candy coats the turd… we were lied to. It was intentional. The guys with the 97db efficient horns can feel at ease and keep mentioning it’s a nice amp.. what about the rest of us? I’m 3 ohm at 86 db in a 24x40ish 13’ ceiling room.. think it would sound good at 86 db’s for me? It’s just not right. It really burns me up.  

Oh you mean 4.5x more power… but in two channels with bass frequencies? Yeah, I’m sure the next one will do all that.

I’m bothered by the view point that we should just gloss over the big covers over little 15w trannies or it making less than 25% of what its advertised to make because a few can still enjoy it with super efficient speakers in little rooms. So their false advertising and sneaky use of big fake covers should excuse its non performance for those who may buy this amp and have it totally not work for them because of the misrepresented specs.

What about the guy in a 30 x 40 room with 3 ohm speakers rated at 84 sensitivity? Think he feels this amp is “sweet sounding”? There is just no excuse for it.

I have no doubt that it isn’t a wonderful 15 or 17 watt amp.. thats not the issue. The issue is All the other people who spend their hard earned cash only to receive something thats a lie and not help them or worse harm their current equipment.

Maybe Bob can remarket it as the Crimson -120 since its missing 120 watts? or how about the Crimson 2-60. I suppose the Crimson 215 or 217 could work.

@jbhiller That’s a great offer. I live in Florida so not feasible. As mentioned I came super close to buying this amp. My speakers are 86db 3 ohm and in a 30 by ..60ish room with 13 ft ceilings. It would have been a disaster. I came from two Carver C-500 amps vertically bi-amped. So while they were grainy on top and not the end of my road.. I was all bought in on Carver. Bitter sweet to see where its led. I was still keeping my eye out on used to see if I could pick one up, not now. Do love my current tube amps.. but there will always be that what if Changitis with this hobby. 

@ozzy62 thanks man, you’re a gentle sweetheart of a guy. Maybe there are some puppies you can kill or someone’s grandma you can push down some stairs?

What a massive steaming pile of non-committal dodging. I sincerely hope every 275 is returned for a full refund… then they can remarket them as the “Brown -120 watt amp” that’s only missing 120 of its advertised watts. 

@jjss49 I’m pretty angry about it. I’ve owned Carver made gear in the past. I’m angry because I really admired his designs. I “believed” in him. I defended him in conversations about his career and products. It bothers me because I’ve looked him in the eye and heard his tales. I’m not rich, I make sacrifices to own the gear I do have. I try to study, read reviews and know what I’m buying. I “almost” bought the 275 and was intending to still buy one possibly two, in the near future. I sat on a little kitty of money and was watching like a Hawk to buy used when this crap hit the fan. I’m angry. I feel foolish and lied to because I trusted what he said and what is advertised as their specs. I expect legitimate professional companies to be honest about measurements… even if they put their best foot forward and measure from the best possible perspective.. you still expect it to be in the range of what they advertise. This was blatant lies. The soul motivation is greed and at the cost of your client/customer. I have every right to be angry. Every right to say it.

I’ve owned:

Phase Linear 400

Carver Cube

Two Carver C-500’s verticly bi-amped.

You don’t like my opinion. You’ve gone to great length to copy every word… cool I’m glad my posts were informative

To comment on my limited posts.. I’ve checked Audiogon at least monthly for over ten years. I’ve bought items I’ve read about from this forum. I’ve learned a great deal reading all of your posts. I just was never moved to contribute anything until this thread. This truly deeply disgusts me. It eats at my passion for this hobby. I contribute and am far more involved in other forums. Not because I dislike Audiogon… but frankly, because much of the gear and reviews are at a price point I rarely can be involved in. I’m a lower tear in gear. Products like Rogue, Jolida, Roksan, Bryston, Spacial Audio, Alon, Monitor Audio.. I don’t often play in the Krell, Wilson, McIntosh world. Being “around” the industry I have had the opportunity to listen to and compare many high end brands.. but not to own them. So dislike me if you wish, we’d probably like each other if we met face to face and started to talk about how much we each love music and audio.

I wont post anymore, no point in it.