Power output of tube amps compared to solid states

Unsound,

That is true.

I suppose that could be one reason perhaps why many are tube fans yet many are not.

Unsound, what is meant by offense is not really a matter of taste. Back in the 1960s, GE did a test where they played music and test tones for people and gauged the response.

What they did was to introduce two types of distortion- even lower orders, and higher odd orders, in two tests. What they found was that people will tolerate without objection up to about 30% distortion if its all lower orders, but tiny amounts of odd orders, less than 0.1% was highly objectionable!

IOW, what they found out was that the human ear listens for the 5th, 7th and 9th harmonics in order to determine the volume of a sound and that we are sensitive to distortions as low as 0.001%, where we really don't care about lower orders (the 2nd,3rd and 4th).

This is also the difference between tubes and transistors as far as distortion goes. I myself do not like what many have come to call the 'tube coloration' and I have found that with careful design there is no reason to have to tolerate it either. Nor do I like transistor coloration, but its a lot harder to design transistor amps that lack it; all of them that I have heard that lack transistor coloration are all also zero feedback class A designs, I think not out of coincidence.

I don't fault anyone for disdaining the typical distortions that are easily heard in a lot of gear- I feel the same way.

Atmasphere, your points are well taken but, I'm doubt that these findings were experienced by 100% of the people tested. Just as in other areas of audio, for what ever reason some people seem to be more or less sensitive to some aspects more or less than others. There are other considerations that need to be considered; budget, heat, space, compatibility with connected gear, etc.. When the entire equation is put forth, new sources of "offense" can be introduced. In certain circumstances the benefits of one technology are over ridden by the exposure or introduction of new flaws.

Once again, I return to how radical a departure Arthur's posts are when discussing power in amplifiers.

Unfortunately, our posts are again dealing in the traditional means of trying to explain how the watts we measure in a tube amplifier versus a solid state amplifier still correlate in a 1 to 1 ratio. The point is, they don't. Well, at least, not in a useful way of the music / amplifier / loudspeaker relationship. As Arthur gave a glimpse of in such an utterly brilliant way in his initial post, tubes and transistors operate in VASTLY different ways. Like comparing an NFL running back coming through the hole on a play to a distance runner in a 10K event, both moving at 10 mph, living in a world where we use a steady state (linear, quadratic, or even cubic, etc.) measurement to compare them confuses the issue, and only delays us further from the questions and answers that will ultimately solve the puzzle.

Again, this is a question of calculus. Yet we're still attempting to shove it into an arithmetic / algebraic model. Sorry to say, but it just ain't gonna work. Until we come to grips with the fact that we need to operate under a completely different paradigm we're going to be splitting hairs on issues that bring us no closer to understanding.

Grant's question, "What's hotter, 85° in Miami, or 85° in Phoenix?" can get the dialogue back on track. Back in my days as a research chemist / material science engineer, I would use an analogous example in taking the first step in illustrating the difference between temperature and heat. When you open the 350 degree F oven you're baking a cake in, the air and metal oven racks / pans are obviously both at 350 degrees F. And while you are in no peril in putting your bare hand into the oven in contact with 350 degree air, you know not to grab the racks or pans which are at the same 350 degrees F without the protection of an oven mitt or potholder. Without going into the mathematics involved, the metal will transfer that 350 degrees F instantaneously into your flesh, the air does so in a much more gradual manner. In simple terms, that's the difference between temperature and heat.

What I'm getting at is we need to come up with the same type of "temperature versus heat" model when dealing with amplifier power. Then, we'll be capable of satisfying Unsound's relevant question.

The last thing I want to say is that we must also be on guard to not fall into the trap of trying to explain why some folks choose tube amplification as simply a matter of power. Power is but one piece in the puzzle.

I thought Ralph's point was that the choice might be because of the differences in the way tube and SS introduce different types and levels of distortion, not power per se. I do know this about power, I seem to want as little of it as possible, as long as it can make my speakers as loud, fast, and dynamic as I need them to be.