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@thespeakerdude wrote:

They may go down to 32Hz, but that is probably with drop-off and high distortion, and if using 2, more room mode excitation. Subs are to reduce distortion, go deep without roll-off, and reduce room mode excitation. Ideally you cross your speakers higher so they are not taxed with frequencies/excursions where they distort.

+1

@mijostyn --

+1

I would not use anything larger than 15" as I think the larger cones are more difficult to control. I have seen slo-mo videos of large cones wobbling instead of moving in pistonic fashion. ...

Some of the high order bandpass designs I’m considering that are equipped with high efficiency, pro 21" neodymium magnet-fitted woofers (crazy powerful, extremely sturdy drivers) wouldn’t see problems with cone wobbling in any domestic setting, let alone in pairs or - God forbid - more. Both the output generated by the front- and back wave of the driver is utilized, and with high eff. to boot cone movement will be kept to a minimum - even at quite staggering SPL’s. These are tuned to offer "no more" than 25Hz honest extension, however (20-ish Hz in-room, plenty for me); if crawling well below 20Hz is needed, not to mention below 15Hz, a steep rise in cone movement is the result, as well as effective enclosure volume to maintain visceral impact. The 15" woofers in my tapped horn subs (also a high eff., high-order bandpass design, tuned just below 25Hz) move only a few mm’s at most at bonkers SPL’s that are viscerally felt. That’s making the most of a given cone area in a design that’s a force multiplier.

@kota1 wrote:

You are overthinking it, many people have 2.0 systems and enjoy them without subs.

Not a all, it just about the benchmark one is setting.

@phusis , let me change that to I’m overthinking. I have a well treated room that is nicely EQ’ed in my main system which does everything from 2 CH to 9.2.7 Atmos. I just got a new preamp/dac/headphone amp in the Sony Signature line. I can connect it via RCA to my HT processor and use the subs, the EQ, etc. I can also connect it via balanced directly to my active speakers. Too systems, totally different, in one room. Before I start messing with subs and EQ with the new 2 CH pre I want to let it go and see what happens. Paul McGowan disavows EQ in a 2 CH system (but still likes subs).

I got the new Sony Signature TA-Z1HES installed tonight and so far have only used it as a dac connected to my main system (subs, EQ, etc). I connected it to a laptop and streamed some ripped files as well as streamed tidal. I must have a bias to Japanese tuned products because my processor is a Marantz, this new unit is a Sony and my DAP is an Onkyo DP-X1. The dac in the Sony is crystal clear straight out of the box, I look forward to breaking it in. Of the upsampling features I like DSD remastering the best. You can only engage it with files of CD resolution or lower (44hz). The real surprise was when I let my Onkyo DP-X1 DAP upsample and output the files as native DSD. I have the song Angela by Bob James on an SACD and heard it many times. I never thought upsampling could approach native DSD and if I didn’t know it I couldn’t tell the difference. When streaming Tidal I have to let the DAC do the DSD remastering. The DSD choices available are limited, inconvenient, and expensive. What a pleasant surprise and I would say just as a dac this unit justifies the price. I’ll try it as a two channel preamp tomorrow and post. The engineers at Sony know digital.

@phusis , The problem most of us face with subwoofers with normally sized rooms in a residential setting is SIZE. Horn loaded subwoofers would have to be huge to work correctly. Same thing goes for the enclosures required to house a 21" subwoofer. It is much easier and more cosmetically acceptable for most people, myself included, to use multiple smaller drivers is sealed enclosures. With modern drivers you can get a 12" driver into a 1.5 cubic foot sealed enclosure and with enough power and digital signal processing you can get it to do just about anything within the limits of your amplifier to work perfectly. I use 8 of them which equals 4 15" drivers or two 18" drivers. In a 16 foot wide room I have no trouble getting flat down to 18Hz where they are rolled of steeply by a digital high pass filter at 84 dB/oct so as not to waste power and piss of the turntable. They are actually boosted 6 dB or so at 20 Hz to simulate the visceral sensation you get at a live concert at more reasonable levels. They are also in perfect phase and time with the main speakers. This is critical if you cross over at 100 Hz like I do and don't want to know you are listening to subwoofers.

@mijostyn 

I use 8 of them which equals 4 15" drivers or two 18" drivers.

Does the law of diminishing returns kick in after the first 2 or 3 subs?