preamp vs. no-preamp


Hi guys, I would like to know your opinions regarding the classic question (which also has been posted many times in this forum, I know, I know) whether or not a preamp is needed for a good (= musical sound). You see, if you can delete the preamp and connect the DAC into the poweramp, you can save lots of money, sometimes up to $ 15,000 for a Conrad-Johnson ART (this is off course an extreme example). The money you have spent on the preamp can be used for buying a better source or amplifier (mono's?). So theoretically if you don't have a preamplifier you can improve the sound reproduction by: deleting redundant audio circuitry and interconnect cables, upgrading the quality of you source, poweramplifier or speakers.
My personal experience is that without a preamplifier the sound is becoming thin and uninvolving, but I know there are audiophiles who don't have a preamp in their audio system.
dazzdax
I just checkout the Jena Labs website and they look interesting. Both Jena Labs and Virtual Dynamics cryogenically treat their cables. This gives them an edge over most cable companies. Maybe one day I will compare the VD Nite with Jena Labs cables. My verdict is still out on the VD IC's (I just sent a long run to VD for retermination), so I am back to my old Nordost QF... However, I would HIGHLY recommend the VD Nite power cords. Do a search here and AA and the only potential negative comment I have found about these VD Nite cords is their steep retail price ($1500, but can be had for nearly 1/3 on the used market).

The guy I bought mine from was a dealer who was unloading all of his VD cables because he could not compete with VD (due to them selling them directly online). Anyway, his opinion was they were the best he has ever heard, and I wholeheartedly agree with him. He had them in his $100k reference system with top of the line Audio Note gear and Nordost Valhalla speaker cables (he thinks the Valhalla are the best speaker cables he has ever heard, he really wants to find something less expensive that comes close or sounds better than the Valhalla). I am not into the Audio Note sound per se, but it is VERY revealing.

One thing about the VD Nite cables (all of them) require ungodly times to break in (500 hours may not be an unreasonable estimate). Many people I think sell these cables before they have not broken them in sufficiently.

Anyway, I would suggest you try an Ayre K-1x preamp with phono, and get yourself into VINYL! The Ayre K-1x maybe one of the best line level and phono preamps ever made combined. There may be slightly (very slightly) better line level preamps out there (for insane $$$ as opposed to the $9k or so the Ayre sells new). There may be slightly (oh so slightly) better SEPARATE phono preamps out there, BUT no preamp on the planet that I have heard or read about (MAYBE the Supratek Cortese, but this has yet to be determined by my ears), has as good of a line level AND phono section. The K-3x (I have it, is pretty darn great), the K-1x is out of this world.

You will find that vinyl with a K-1x will make your digital well... sound... not-so-good. I am an evil man.

Sorry to take this thread off topic. But I must say Ayre preamplification is worth every penny.

KF
My experience has been the same as TOK2000. I have never had any luck running a cdp direct. Pre-amp does more than just control volume it is really the first level of control in your system. In my system the pre-amp has always had the biggest impact on performance. I could use a mid-fi level amp, high quality pre-amp and get astonishingly good results but if I used a mid-fi level pre-amp, high quality amp I got poor results. Even the audio aero, wadia 861 sounded compressed and lost substantial depth in soundstage running direct. Just my two cents.

Chuck
I agree with Tim, I have always prefered the sound of running the CD player direct, even Wadia. Unless you have the ability to spend a lot of money I don't think you can get better sound with a preamp and CD player than you will get with the Audio Aero Captiole Mk 2. I have tried a Pass Labs preamp on my Capitole and easily prefered the sound of the Capitole run direct.

Tim an Elrod EPS 2 sig might just be the answer to your woes.
I'll stick in the pro preamp camp. Although I don't think I ever went direct from CDP to amp (I've always had too many sources), I did experiment in the early 90's with passive preamps. I didn't care for them overall. They were very revealing, but they did sound thin and bass shy. I've been back on active preamps for over 8 years. I currently use 6 sources, so I need a preamp. I'm sure in the right system a CDP driving the amp straight may sound pretty good, but then how would I play my LP's?

Regards,
John
I threw a Creek passive in my system while the tube preamp is out for repair, and it sounds remarkably good. However, I am missing some body and it is a little thin. Is my preamp worth the price difference? To many it may not be, but to others it would be. I still think a good active preamp is preferable to passive. Frankly, the detail is not that much better than the active.