There are going to be people like boomerbillone everywhere. Not everyone is going to be chasing the best music server and for him, a general purpose computer is more than good enough.
That being said, if your system has the resolution, you will be able to notice significant differences between computer / music server and power supplies. I built my own general use computer for my office computer / audio system because I need a "general purpose computer". I play music, do a lot of gaming, youtube videos, photo editing and work on my system. Currently, I’m running a stock Pink Faun S/PDIF PCI audio card on an AMD processor motherboard (with multiple sets of mirrored SSD drives and video card). It uses AES/EBU cable to connect to a higly modified LKS MH-DA004 dac. I can definitely hear differences in sound between powering the Pink Faun card using the internal computer switching power supply and an external Farad Super3 linear power supply. With the computer switching power supply, you can hear a lot of distortion and noise in the audio signal and the sound just does not have as much "oomph" and resolution when compared to the external Farad Super 3. The Pink Faun card is awsome becuase you can upgrade it with a high end OCXO clock, but it is definitely expensive.
Now you can take this further and compare my computer with a dedicated high end music streamer/server, such as the Aurender or Auralic models. I have not done this, but I suspect that the Aurender/Auralic could very well sound better than my computer. They have fully linear power supplies with hardware that is selected and designed specifically for only doing music streamer/server duties. They are NOT a "general use computer". You don’t have to have 32GB of ram with expensive 10-core cpu and hard drives with video card to be able to do what a music server does.
There have been people who have been very succesful in building a music server from a computer platform They generally have fanless cases and cpu heatsinks with linear power supplies such as HDPlex. You are not going to get a super processing computer because the linear power supplies pretty much max out at about 500 watts. If you need to do gaming and processing, web browsing, business, then a general purpose computer may be what you need.
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If you deciede on the Roon Nucleus, get a linear power supply for it. I would recommend the Keces P8 at this point because the Roon can draw up to 65 watts (3.5A). The P8 has a large enough power supply to keep up with this draw. I do not recommend Farad or the Teddy Pardo "TeddyNuc" power supply. The problem with Teddy Pardo is that it's a dual regulated design. The power flows through two bipolar transistors and creates a LOT of heat with high current draw. The case ends up getting burning HOT. Also, he uses heat pads between the transistors and case instead of mating the transistor directly with metal. This helps in easy manufacturing, but heat transfer is poor.
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@high-amp - Ah, I did not know you already had an LPS. I looked up the 100W HDPLEX. It will handle a 5A continuous load on the 19V output, so it should be fine for the Roon Nucleus. The Keces P8 might be better since it has a larger power supply for a max load of 8A. However, either of these power supplies will be a lot better than the stock "wal-wart" switching power adapter.
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The Hi-Fi Rose RS-250 is a much smaller unit in physical size. This translates to smaller power supply, less circuitry, no modular board sections, etc. That is the primary price difference.
I do agree that an all-in-one probably won't perform as well as a really good off-board DAC combined with your Rune Nucleus + 100W HDPlex. There are some servers that have good DACs built in, but they are generall over $10k.
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Took a quick look. Amarra Luxe is software that runs on a Windows PC or a Macintosh computer. You are still going to have to deal with computer power supply and a special USB or S/PDIF output card (with external linear power supply) if you want to match performance of a dedicated music server.
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If you are looking for an all-in-one that is pretty decent, the Lumin T2 has gotten great feedback in the industry. That being said, you need to think of the Lumin T2 as a $2000 music streamer combined with a $2200 DAC, both powered by a shared $300 switching power supply ($4500 total price). To get the most out of this, you really need to upgrade the power supply to linear power supply by getting that Lumin Connection Kit $60 and the Sbooster external linear power supply $400. Is it going to sound good with this? Yes, I think it will sound very good. The DAC section uses two ESS9028PRO dacs, which is good. However, the I/V section and analog output section are all op amps. This is not the best sound quality, but with a $2200 DAC you are not really going to get any better.
There are a lot of very excellent DACs in the $3,000 to $5,000 range that would totally outshine the Lumin T2, typically all using discrete analog stages instead of op amps. You can look at products such as Audio-GD, Holo Audio May DAC, Denafrips, LKS MH-DA005. All of these have different approaches to power supply, analog circuit and sound signature, but they are all excellent. If you combine one of these with a Roon Nucleus you would be doing better than tha Lumin T2. But it would be separate devices (not an all-in-one).
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I'm just pointing out what I see on the Lumin T2. It is definitely not a bad product if you want a single all-in-one-unit (but also with that Sbooster power supply that you could put anywhere, even on the floor).
A note on the Innuous products. Even as just a server/streamer, they do changes to the sound via their DSP. It is a type of waveform smoothing that changes the sound somewhat. Many people love this affect from Innous and think it sounds better then other products. I heard the Innous and I did not prefer this sound. I compared it to an Antipodes streamer and the Antipodes sounded a lot better (since it was neutral).
There is a youtube review comparing Innous and Auralic streamer where they commented the Innous sounded more lush and silky. The Auralic sounded more dry. I actually think this is because the Auralic is completely neutral and is not changing the waveforms from the audio.
Like I said, many love Innous. Just something to be aware of.
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I was not trying to "push" the Antipodes product. I was just stating what I compared the Innous to when I listened to it (it was an audio shop in San Francisco). There are a lot of streamer options. I’m sure there are going to be competing arguments here, but I think you would be extremely happy with a Roon Nucleus with linear power supply. You don’t necessarily need to spend $5k+ on just the streamer part. It’s all about your budget. My point was that the Innous is definitely coloring/changing the waveforms and most other streamers are not doing this (unless you forcable enable some sort of DSP in your streamer). Like I said, many people have listened to Innous and think it’s the greatest thing on earth. Everyone has different points of view of what the "best sound" is.
Also, depending on what you want to do. the lesser priced Roon Nucleus ($1459) might be good enough. If you don’t need to do DSP on DSD audio files or have a need for multi-channel audio, then you probably do not need the Roon Nucleus Plus ($2559). The lower priced Roon Nucleus will still do DSD, but you won’t be able to apply much DSP to that. Lower priced Roon Nucleus will still do all DSP functions against PCM audio (such as CD, 24/96, 24/192, etc.).
The Nucleus is using an Intel i3 processor; the Nucleus + is using an Intel i7. This allows Roon Nucleus + to do all the extra DSP on DSD files. Some examples of DSP functions are Sample Rate Conversion, Procedural or Parametric EQ, Convolutions, Crossfeed, some Speaker Setup and Headroom Management. I’m not exactly sure what the Roon Nucleus provides for DSP.
As far as how I know this stuff, I’ve been in this audio game for 22 years at this point. My hobby also includes rebuilding/upgrading audio electronics (replacing/upgrading capacitors, internal wiring, rectifiers, audio stages, power supplies, etc. etc.) I’ve been doing that for about 15 years now.
I don’t know if this is something you want to consider, but there’s a used Roon Nucleus Rev A on audiogon for $995. It’s Rev A which means a limit on SSD thickness size and you only get one HDMI output, but this item does include a 1TB internal SSD for song storage. It’s used, of course.
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Just for kicks, I looked into that “432 Evo Essence” streamer/dac that you asked about earlier. It’s essentially a 432 Evo Standard (all the Evo are computer motherboards, which is not necessarily bad). They just put in an Asus Xonar Essence STX II PCI computer audio card and use that as the “DAC” (hence the name Evo Essence). This sound card originally sold for $200, but is now selling for $400-600 for some reason. I am intimately familiar with this card since I used to run this in my system many years ago. I also did modifications (upgraded capacitors / opamps). I used this for some years before I switched to using an external DAC. The stock Asus card uses Nichicon FG capacitors and somewhat low resolution op amps. This presents a very nice and pleasing sound, but it is not going to be super high resolution (due to the FG caps warming up the sound by slightly messing the high frequencies).
There’s another point of concern here. The Evo website has a bullet point on this item that says “Oven controlled clock for low jitter”. I have a gut feeling that this is a marketing falsehood. The Asus Essence card uses a TCXO, which is a temperature controlled clock. This is completely different than oven controlled clock (OCXO), which are generally much larger in size and require more power supply voltage. Unless Evo did significant modifications to this Asus card, I think they made a mistake on the description (I could be wrong here – others chime in if they have the definite knowledge).
Because of this, I think the Lumin T2 would be a highly superior all-in-one box. The Lumin T2 would be much higher resolution and more transparent as a DAC when compared to the 432 Evo Essence. It is entirely possible that this is the reason Audiotroy did not push the 432 Evo Essence dac when you asked about it.
A note on the Evo 432 products. They have a DSP mode called “432hz tuning”. This is another form of coloration where it changes the waveforms. I have never heard this, so I cannot say what it’s really doing to the music and if this is a good result. However, the 432 allows you to enable/disable this DSP mode whenever you want.
Further note on Denafrips. Based on listening and descriptions, the Denafrips generally have a thick sound that has a lot of “weight” to it. However, they are not the highest resolution / transparent DAC. Many prefer the Denafraps sound because of some reason or another. I have heard one person say that when they listen to music, they want a very pleasant sound that they can just relax/veg to. If you want a really forward / transparent / exciting sound, the Denafrips product may not be for you. It all comes down to personal preference. If this is what you’re looking for, then awesome, get a Denafrips.
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I don't know anything about Pegasus Musician DAC. I looked at internal pics and it looks like an okay small format R2R resistor ladder DAC at $1k retail. Not the best, but okay. This next is a complete guess, but from youtube videos and what I see inside Pegasus, I think you are better off looking at the Audio-GD R-1 if you want a good resistor ladder DAC in the $1k price point. I think the Audio-GD R-1 is going to be more open and transparent sounding. The Pegasus might sound a little flat/sterile if you do a side-by-side comparison.
The Wyred 4 Sound Dac-2V2 is a good neutral sounding DAC. Single ESS and good power supply, but uses op amp for output stage. It's very nice sounding at $2k, but it's not going to have the "magic" that these other DACs have. In fact, I think even the Lumin T2 is a lot better sounding and more open with more "magic" than the W4S 2V2.
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I actually did recommend the DAC that sns did. I mentioned the LKS MH-DA005. Musetec is the company that makes this dac, so he just says "Musetec 005" instead. It’s the same exact dac. Yeah, it’s expensive at $3300, but I think this shoots higher than other $3300 dacs. It’s also available in silver (hint, hint, lol).
I have the previous version MH-DA004, which retails for $1600. I chose the 004 because if I were to design a DAC, they do almost everything exactly as I would. That being said, the parts chosen in the stock 004 were not the best choice and, as a result, the stock 004 had a harsh bright forward type of sound. I have massievly rebuilt this DAC and it’s extremely excellent now. There is a 290 page thread on this 004 DAC over at head-fi.org full of engineers like me who have done significant mods to the 004.
The 005 is a much needed upgrade and design change. He focuses on supercapacitors for all the power supplies for digital sections (which are almost like batteries). Dual ESS9038PRO dacs with fully discrete Class A I/V output stage. Better 100MHz clock for the ESS chip. You can read the two threads about this 005 dac on this forum:
MH-DA005
holo may vs musetec 005
I looked at the Border Patrol. It’s a radically different design and I’m not familiar with this type of architecture. It uses a old school 16-bit R2R chip dac. Based on youtube videos, it sounds very analog and very smooth/clean. Apparently, you can play 24 bit music files through, but they are going to be down-converted to 16-bit because the R2R dac chip can only do 16-bit. I listened to the Guttenberg video and one thing he said was other dacs, such as Denafrips, will be higher resolution. The one thing that sticks out on the Border Patrol is that is sounds so organic.
In the end it really depends on what kind of sound you’re after. Guttenberg said the Border Patrol are kind of for people who are "music first" for music that sound rich and organic, but the Border Patrol is not as high resolution and transparent and revealing of details as the other dacs in this list. It really depends. It’s not a tube sounding dac, but it carries that type of mentality.
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Okay. I looked it over. Yes, I think the Ferot can definitely be a budget level DAC that sounds really good. Here is why. The Ferot uses an old schoool Burr-Brown 1794 DAC chip. It is extremely easy to engineer a DAC that sounds good with these chips. When using these chips, the DAC normally has two different TCXO clocks for the two primary audio sampling rate multipliers (i.e. 44.1/88.2/172.4 vs 48/96/192). The 1794 dac chip is very forgiving and you don’t have to focus a lot on power supply and I/V stages too much. The 1794 is a two channel DAC chip and DACs will usually only have one 1794 chip for a stereo output.
At $1350 it would be a good "get your feet wet" option. I would definitely recommend getting the $900 Merason linear power supply for this because it is very well designed and uses a 4-pin XLR connection for the power (as opposed to a normal 2.1mm 5.5mm barrel plug). Although, you can still get a lower cost linear power supply if you want (like the Farad Super3).
The Merason Ferot will likely have more resolution than the Border Patrol dac mentioned above, but the Border Patrol will definitely still be more "organic" sounding. You will not have as good "separation of instruments" from the Border Patrol. When there’s a lot of instruments and types of sound going on , the Border Patrol will likely to sound a bit messy and it will be difficult to pull out the individual sound of a guitar in the middle of bass, drums, distortion, screaming vocals, etc.
Some DACS will use the ESS chips. These are generally the most highest resolution and most revealing dac chips. However, it’s incredibly hard to engineer a solution with the ESS that sounds good. If you want the most detailed and revealing DAC, the ESS is the way to go. However, the chip has a different design. It is more like a CPU processor than a traditional dac because it has so many different functions built in. The core in ESS runs at 100Mhz and you need an extremely good 100MHz clock for the timing to be accurate. The ESS chip internally samples different rates using integer math against the 100MHz timing to produce the right pulse speeds (i.e. 44.1kz for cd, 48khz, 96khz, etc.). The power supply for the ESS needs to be extremely smooth and extremely stable. If you look at the LKS MH-DA005 internal pics, you can see that there is a massive main power supply on the bottom using multiple stages to power super-capacitors that act almost like batteries to give the smoothest constant voltage. In addition to that, you will see additional multiple stages of small regulators on the DAC board with tons of polymer caps for filtering the power supply that is fed into the DAC chips.
In addition, the LKS uses two separate ESS9038 dac chips (one for each channel). Each ESS9038 is actually an 8-channel DAC chip. The LKS uses all 8 channel in parallel stacked to produce a single balanced output that is fed into the discrete I/V stage.
That being said, all this costs money and parts, which is why the LKS 005 is $3300.
The basic premise is the more you spend, the better you will get. This will extend up to $5k, $10k, $20k, $50k. You will have a point of diminishing returns where it is just not cost effective for you to spend the additional money for a smaller boost in performance. At the $3-5k level, you are not there yet. But everyone has a different budget. If you really only have $1300 to spend, the Ferot looks like an excellent choice.
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Ah, one thing that the Merason POW1 linear power supply has that all other generic external linear power supplies do not are 3 different power supplies internally. The POW1 connection cable is actually a special 5-pin DIN cable. It has power supplies for digital section (probably 5V), and two separate rails for I/V analog section (this is something like a +15V line and a -15V line, but it could be any voltage). The important part is the analog section works better with a + and a - voltage power supply line.
Most DACs that have internal linear power supplies (like the LKS 005) do have multiple power supplies. My LKS 004 dac actually has 6 separate power supplies internally (2 for analog I/V, 3 for digital, 1 for controller and front panel). The LKS 005 most likely has 6 power supplies as well (it follows Musetec approach).
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Now have Bel Canto DAC 2.7 and it smokes both the Ferot and BP.
I really hate comments like this because everyone has them. Just watch now for people coming out of their nooks and crannies and saying "this DAC is the absolute best" just because it's the dac they have.
I generally try to tell people what kind of sound a certain piece of equipment or combination will make instead of saying "this dac is better than this other dac".
I would love for people to do the same here. In what ways does the Bel Canto 2.7 sound --different-- than the BP and Ferot dacs? What does it bring to the table? What does it take away? lol. This will help people much more than just saying "this dac smokes xxx".
As far as the Bel Canto 2.7, it doesn't look really impressive internally. A rather small transformor and power supply with op amps littered all over the I/V and output stage. Because of the linear power supply, this dac may sound better than the stock Ferot. But I bet the Ferot with linear power supply would beat the Bel :Canto.
As far as Border Patrol vs Bel Canto, I think it is a difference in sonic signature. jerryg123 might like the resolution of the Bel Canto much better than the organic (slightly messy) character of the Border Patrol. Does that mean Bel Canto smokes Border Patrol??? It's up to the listener and what they are looking for.
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The Gustard X22 might be cleaner (less distortion) than the Topping D90. The Topping might be better in other ways.
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First thing to realize is that RME is a big name in the pro audio industry (recording studios, etc.). The price of RME components is significantly higher than other pro audio components. So you are already paying more for the RME than you would for comparable items.
Second, the RME has additional features for audio analysis and DSP audio EQ. So you are paying for that as well. If you need a DAC that has DSP EQ, then it's definitely an option.
There is one youtube video where the guy says the Topping D90 sounds cleaner/better than the RME ADI-2 DAC. At $764, it's significantly less than the RME.
The Topping D90 may be a good option if your budget is really low at the $700-800 level, but realize that the D90 has an internal switching power supply. No way to upgrade to linear power supply here.
ok, so let's talk about Gustard X22. The Gustard X22 is like a "half-version" of the LKS 005. Good power supplies, dual ESS chips in high current mode. However, it uses bunches of op amps for both I/V and output stages. Plus you have Nichicon Gold Tune for main power supply capacitors. Is the sound good? Yeah, but you are not going to have the greatest transparency or high frequency "air" in your music. Even the Topping D90 is more transparent with more "air" than the gustard. I would actually get the D90 over the Gustard at this point (my personal opinion).
The Topping D90 is great if you really only at that $800 level, but you're kind of stuck there at that point. There is no where to go, no way for improvements.
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