Ready to try vinyl

Johnnantais, by the way you're beloved Art Dudley of Listener fame (also a personal favorite of mine) has several reference turntables. One is a Linn Sondek Lp12 with a Ittok LVII tonearm and Lingo power supply (as do I) and another is the Linn Sondek Lp12 with a Naim Aro tone arm and Naim Armageddon power suppy. In his associated equipment list I have failed to see a TT with training wheels errrr I mean an idler-wheel... another foul and his money have gone separate ways. Last I heard he was in hog heaven with those old shoe-boxes from Scotland. Just having fun with you!

Egad I'm being teased into paroxysms of rage! I will long mourn Listener magazine, and still admire Art Dudley for daring to stand by musicality as identifiable and more important than mere information, even if his Linn LP12 could use training wheels! That's another recommendation to add to the list, a used Linn LP12 for a good price, upgradable later if he so wishes. After idler-wheels, servo-controlled DDs (but good ones like my Sony 2250) and classic 3-point suspension belt-drives like my Scottish Ariston RD11S are my favourites.

Johnnantais,

I thought your posts were interesting if a little labor-intensive to read (and I'm sure to write). I don't disagree with you on principal, and I've been lurking on your Lenco forum now for a few weeks now (but now writing) with great interest. Since I don't have the time to address everything you said, I'll just bring up a few of your points I'd like to discuss:

You wrote that hi-end belt drive makers "DO have it all wrong, a case of the usual orthodox dogma not being questioned and everyone blindly following without re-examination"

So, I'm sure you are intimately aware of the R & D of all of these companies in their decisions to use belt drives, correct?

You were correct in saying that most of the TT makers on the list Judy and I compiled (very tongue in cheek I might add) don't fit into the buget of the entry-level tables we're talking of (let alone most people's bugets at all). I'm not saying that companies haven't in the past tried to sell lesser technologies as better than they are because they want to keep costs down, but I find it very hard to believe that given the high price tags of so many of these players (SME, Nottingham, Brinkman, etc.) that none of these companies have realized what you, in your infinite wisdom have, and moved to DD or idler motors. I mean, these companies are selling so few units a year for such high price tags, that they seem to jump on any even perceived tech edge they can. We weren't making that list as a set of recommedations to the original poster, but rather being smart-asses, and pointing out how unhelpful pshcyicanimals orignal post was. I never made a post saying "belt drive is better than everything else on earth and everything rotates around belt drive". Psychicanimal made a post saying belts were a waste of money and that idler/dd drives were amazing, but didn't give any examples of tables or even say why. It just seemed that was an irresponsible post, and highly unhelpful and even misleading for the original poster. Granted, we're all a bit off of topic now, and this really shouldn't be a debate over DD/idler vs. Belt.

The last point I'll address (so much for being brief, eh?) is in regards to the following comment you made: "For those who want to exercise a little thing called "independent thought" and who like hands-on experience, then I invite you to try the Lenco Challenge"

So you chided R_F_Sayles for unwarranted personal attacks, but it's midly hypocritical then to call anyone who can't be bothered making their own TT (your Lenco project) or who buys a readymade product a "slave" as you put it.
So anyone who buys a plug and play or belt drive table doesn't use independent thought? o i c.

In any case, I enjoy your Lenco project, and I haven't above, nor here, criticized the idea of DD or idler because to be honest I don't know enough about them, I was only chiding psychicanimal for his largely unsubstantiated post. I think you have some valid points, but you're a little heavy-handed/conspiracy theory about it all, no? You honestly believe that all the belt drive biggies are sticking to it because it's cheaper for them? I'm cynical of capitalism, but when you're talking about a record player that cost more than most cars, c'mon!

Johnnantais, Point taken. I found you just a bit quick on the hammer to dismiss a lot of previously held research and knowledge as simpleminded belief. True genius and raving lunacy both come from those beginnings (the ones of dismissing...). And look, if I was a bit curt, well tough, but if you feel I personally attached and/or offended you I truly apologize. I mean it. I still feel from everything I’ve seen and heard in TTs that idler-wheels will come to Hifi right after I see pigs fly! Best of luck.

re: Direct vs. Belt -- I have had more than 20 different turntables of all sorts over the last 7 years - I was "collecting" them for a while - until I got married! And here is why I agree with Johnnantais (for the most part):

What exactly does a turntable do? It's a platter spun by a motor that we put a record on. The ABSOLUTE BEST thing it can do is turn at an accurate, highly constant 33rpm and not impart any vibration to the lp. It cannot "add" anything positive to the playback. Unless you believe in voodoo (which is not uncommon here) there are only 3 factors in the performance of a turntable:

1. The degree to which it maintains a constant, accurate speed
2. The degree to which it manufactures and imparts any "noise" of it's own to the lp. More a function of the main platter BEARING quality - NOT the motor type or location. Good electric motors don't make noise and don't vibrate - bearings do! Belt drives are not relieved of having bearings.
3. The degree to which it isolates the lp from external "noise" - primarily acoustic feedback.

The Technics 1200 specs as well or better on factors 1 and 2 as any high-end belt drive ever can or will. And the 3rd factor is easily controlled by the user and the installation as much as by the design of the deck itself. And the SP-10 just blows the vast majority of them away. (The wow/flutter , speed, etc. measurements are all Google-able so lets not get into a debate about that.)

So why do so many people think they need zillion dollar turntables? IMO it's because the zillion dollar decks all have great arms and cartridges (usually matched to each other properly), whereas the older Japanese DD's that you're comparing to usually have only "acceptable" cartridges and for the most part terrible to mediocre arms with no thought applied to which cartridge was put on what arm!

My main table currently is VPI/w SME 309 arm, not a radical $$$ set-up, but by no means a cheap combo - and I don't think it sounds tremendously better than 1200 with the same cartridge mounted and properly set up. A little better sure, but going back to the original poster's question - they wanted to try out vinyl inexpensively. I'm absolutely certain that if a nice clean lp doesn't thrill 'em on Technics 1200, then it wouldn't on a TNT either.