Ready to try vinyl

Jeez, the short form then. Once upon a time, everyone in the world, including the world's "experts", believed the sun revolved around the earth. Did this mean the sun revolved around the earth? No. Now, everyone in the vinyl-spinning world believes belt-drive is the way to go, including the world's "experts". Does this mean belt drive is the superior system? By itself, majority agreement, including the "experts", means nothing, the only thing which does mean something are facts in an argument of this sort. And science, which is to say actual testing and comparisons, is the only way to it, or we'd still believe the sun revolves around the earth and be none the wiser (Galileo used his telescope, you can use a Lenco). This is the much the point of my "Building high-end 'tables cheap at Home Despot" challenge, that and reasonable pricing and fun. For those who want to exercise a little thing called "independent thought" and who like hands-on experience, then I invite you to try the Lenco Challenge. Musical results can be had with a variety of technologies and company products, but argument/belief from authority is wrong wrong wrong and should be abandoned by those who don't want to be slaves, which is why I jumped into this thread, as I can't stand willing abdication of brains. Idler-wheel technology is receiving a fair bit of press these days, for a fee in Hi Fi Worlde (who also listen to and compare top-of-the-line direct drives from yesteryear to current high-end belt-drives with "surprising" results, as well as the big Garrards) and for free in 6moons: "They suffer from that common misconception that sociologist Robert Bierstedt (1913-1998) called temporocentrism. It's the belief that the present day represents the pinnacle of achievement for all things and one whereby people equate newer with better. Of course the marketing folks delight in taking full advantage of temporocentrism to sell the next great breakthrough. Sometimes newer is better but often it's just different."

Gee, I didn't see anything ungentlemanly in my reply R f sayles, I hope you can understand my "short form", and I had in fact addressed the gentleman's request, this is an ongoing thread with twists and turns, which is how discussions work, perhaps you could try to keep up and refrain from unwarranted personal attacks. I was answering two posts which were specifically on this thread, I don't remember telling anyone they don't know what they hear, I do however remember saying they rely too much on "experts," my point being that even the experts don't question universal assumptions. As to answering the gentleman's request for a reasonably priced turntable, perhaps you could explain to me where Galibier, SME, Amazon etc. fit in. You'd better show some fairness in your attacks and go after Judy426 and Mimberman as well. "Peace" LOL

Johnnantais, by the way you're beloved Art Dudley of Listener fame (also a personal favorite of mine) has several reference turntables. One is a Linn Sondek Lp12 with a Ittok LVII tonearm and Lingo power supply (as do I) and another is the Linn Sondek Lp12 with a Naim Aro tone arm and Naim Armageddon power suppy. In his associated equipment list I have failed to see a TT with training wheels errrr I mean an idler-wheel... another foul and his money have gone separate ways. Last I heard he was in hog heaven with those old shoe-boxes from Scotland. Just having fun with you!

Egad I'm being teased into paroxysms of rage! I will long mourn Listener magazine, and still admire Art Dudley for daring to stand by musicality as identifiable and more important than mere information, even if his Linn LP12 could use training wheels! That's another recommendation to add to the list, a used Linn LP12 for a good price, upgradable later if he so wishes. After idler-wheels, servo-controlled DDs (but good ones like my Sony 2250) and classic 3-point suspension belt-drives like my Scottish Ariston RD11S are my favourites.

Johnnantais,

I thought your posts were interesting if a little labor-intensive to read (and I'm sure to write). I don't disagree with you on principal, and I've been lurking on your Lenco forum now for a few weeks now (but now writing) with great interest. Since I don't have the time to address everything you said, I'll just bring up a few of your points I'd like to discuss:

You wrote that hi-end belt drive makers "DO have it all wrong, a case of the usual orthodox dogma not being questioned and everyone blindly following without re-examination"

So, I'm sure you are intimately aware of the R & D of all of these companies in their decisions to use belt drives, correct?

You were correct in saying that most of the TT makers on the list Judy and I compiled (very tongue in cheek I might add) don't fit into the buget of the entry-level tables we're talking of (let alone most people's bugets at all). I'm not saying that companies haven't in the past tried to sell lesser technologies as better than they are because they want to keep costs down, but I find it very hard to believe that given the high price tags of so many of these players (SME, Nottingham, Brinkman, etc.) that none of these companies have realized what you, in your infinite wisdom have, and moved to DD or idler motors. I mean, these companies are selling so few units a year for such high price tags, that they seem to jump on any even perceived tech edge they can. We weren't making that list as a set of recommedations to the original poster, but rather being smart-asses, and pointing out how unhelpful pshcyicanimals orignal post was. I never made a post saying "belt drive is better than everything else on earth and everything rotates around belt drive". Psychicanimal made a post saying belts were a waste of money and that idler/dd drives were amazing, but didn't give any examples of tables or even say why. It just seemed that was an irresponsible post, and highly unhelpful and even misleading for the original poster. Granted, we're all a bit off of topic now, and this really shouldn't be a debate over DD/idler vs. Belt.

The last point I'll address (so much for being brief, eh?) is in regards to the following comment you made: "For those who want to exercise a little thing called "independent thought" and who like hands-on experience, then I invite you to try the Lenco Challenge"

So you chided R_F_Sayles for unwarranted personal attacks, but it's midly hypocritical then to call anyone who can't be bothered making their own TT (your Lenco project) or who buys a readymade product a "slave" as you put it.
So anyone who buys a plug and play or belt drive table doesn't use independent thought? o i c.

In any case, I enjoy your Lenco project, and I haven't above, nor here, criticized the idea of DD or idler because to be honest I don't know enough about them, I was only chiding psychicanimal for his largely unsubstantiated post. I think you have some valid points, but you're a little heavy-handed/conspiracy theory about it all, no? You honestly believe that all the belt drive biggies are sticking to it because it's cheaper for them? I'm cynical of capitalism, but when you're talking about a record player that cost more than most cars, c'mon!